AMSAG v CAMS Intro Rallies

[Jme]

Let me start by saying that I've had a few issues with the way AMSAG go about their rallying over the years, but generally, I'm a fan. AMSAG is good. I don't want this to deteriorate into an AMSAG bashing thread, as I'm sure many people would love to drive it that way.

What I saw on the weekend at the Hampton Rallysprint offered so much more to our sport with regard to "introductory" and novice rallying than anything CAMS has to offer- by an absolute mile.

If AMSAG get their act together, they can, in the future dominate this competitor market- easily. They just need to get away from this "formula Datsun" mentality.

In 2007, while CAMS is forcing us all into FIA approved everything (including suits and boots), with administration that doesn't care about fostering the lower level classes, AMSAG will be able to offer cheaper, more competitor friendly rallying- IF they change a few things. (you reading this Eddie???)

Obviously, they need to open up vehicle eligibility. Allow all classes of cars- smaller modern FWD's etc- get away from this "hanging onto the past" stuff which just leads into "formula Datsun", and consider allowing 4wd cars in some events (maybe not all)

I'm not sure where the current state of shambles Rally Rego is in at the moment leaves AMSAG with regard to all that- but the engineer certificate system makes it possible to run most cars in AMSAG events.

No licence fees. No log book fees etc... it's all good. The people running AMSAG events, manning controls and officialling are genuine and experienced rally people. They may not hold level 1234 accreditation or have been trained for RoC team "Zebra" or whatever... but they are very competent and knowledgable. The event on the weekend was ran by Eddie, the Topliffs, Waterhouses, Joyners, Berminghams, Kings, Stretch, Doggett, Leo Shaw etc... were all out and about doiing various things for the rally- there are no safety concerns here. To attack AMSAG on grounds of safety, and stage security (in comparison to CAMS) is just plainly wrong, and it discredits many strong rallying identities who have been instrumental in running various AMSAG events.

AMSAG needs to drop the compulsory catering on events, and try to get entry fees a bit lower by removing some cost of officials (ie food/accomo) etc to make sure they come in under the entry fee of comparitive CAMS events... but with clubs such as BMSC charging competitors for events that don't run, and floating ideas that are heavily biased towards there own club members (ie. no official- pay more) AMSAG can only benefit.

Introductory events such as that run by the NSSCC (and others)which require no roll-cage, but are timed- make me nervous. Surely AMSAG events must be prefered, simply because they enforce roll-cages and other safety items.

So... I guess what I'm saying is that CAMS don't have a monopoly on rallying in NSW. We have AMSAG. They have run rallies for ten years, they have insurances in place, there is potential here. Why are we F'ing around with CAMS, ARCom etc when we have AMSAG.

A few barriers need to be broken- but it's an option.

Discuss....

PS: who's gunna be the first ignoramus to bag AMSAG without ever having ran an event or seen AMSAG in operation??

[AV1611]

Well, I for one have never run in an AMSAG event or seen them in operation.

But I've always thought that AMSAG was and is a good thing. But even though I'm agreeing with JME on this one, I'm still an ignoramus, because I've formed an opinion without meeting his criteria for holding an opinion. This time though, I'm an ignoramus in agreement with the Great Man.

But in all seriousness, if their events are everything they sound like (cheaper, longer, and more relaxed) then it must be a good thing. To the best of my knowledge, they have never once had a show-stopping seriously bad incident or mismanaged situation. By "incident", I don't mean a big crash. I am referring to stuff like public entering the stage etc.

What would CAMS do if the BMSC affiliated with AMSAG?

[Factor]

All for competition, whatever else AMSAG offers - it offers an alternative - I personally think that any sport is the better for having a single peak body, but its things like AMSAG in Rallying - Top Gear in Circuit Racing etc that provide a competition and a touchstone for people to evaluate what is on offer. Haven't competed in an AMSAG event but thats not by choice just by circumstance.

[Marcus]

Obviously, they need to open up vehicle eligibility. Allow all classes of cars- smaller modern FWD's etc- get away from this "hanging onto the past" stuff which just leads into "formula Datsun", and consider allowing 4wd cars in some events (maybe not all)

My understanding is that AMSAG does allow other cars, but they just simply arent eligible to win. Which actually is rather appealing if true - the only thing stopping me from doing an AMSAG event is simply the fact the car is rally regoed. Whether or not I could win isnt an issue - it's more the fact I can go have a drive and not worry about a lot of nonsense that simply doesnt need to apply.

And isnt the point of rallying? Having a drive and enjoying yourself?

AMSAG does apparently have it's issues, but on the otherhand, they show things like offical licencing doesnt have to happen for rallying to operate.

If you took the best of the CAMS system and add it to the best of AMSAG, I bet we'ld all be a lot happier and in the forests more.

[bob moore]

Originally Posted by Jme

PS: who's gunna be the first ignoramus to bag AMSAG without ever having ran an event or seen AMSAG in operation??

This is an exceptionally tempting opportunity, jme, but I'll pass on it for now. Let me respond with a question: the last time I looked at AMSAG events I discovered that they don't go out in the dark. Is this still the case, or have things changed?

Originally Posted by Jme

Introductory events such as that run by the NSSCC (and others)which require no roll-cage, but are timed- make me nervous.

I agree. I'm all for providing an opportunity for (genuine) newcomers to try out rallying "on the cheap". However if x% of the newcomers can't drive four stages without falling over, the issue of risk management starts to trouble me.



Grumpy, etc

[Bogan]

Originally Posted by Jme

PS: who's gunna be the first ignoramus to bag AMSAG without ever having ran an event or seen AMSAG in operation??

Does seeing them in operation include looking at regs. online? People who put up PDFs in booklet form need a good kicking .

Port entry fee $550 including $132 for catering? That's not real cheap.

T.

[datral_10]

My first rally was in an AMSAG rally at Bathurst. I had a great time and I still really enjoy competing in AMSAG events. They still run daylight stages mostly but earlier this year was the second running of a single day, day/night rally at Hampton. This is a great idea as it is cheaper, no officals accomadation overnight to worry about, single service point much more competitive kms than transport. As for 'formula Datsun', yes there is a lot of datsuns (they're great cheap to run rally cars) but at the Oberon event I recently officialled at there was many different types of cars along with the Datsuns including Porsche, Mercedes Benz, Isuzu 4WDs, Triumphs, Toyotas, Mitsubishis, Holden.

Anyway I've competed in both CAMS and AMSAG events and in my opinion both have pro's and con's but I really enjoy AMSAG events and think that I get much better value for money so I'd have to say AMSAG would have to be my pick for a better event for newcomers and even experienced drivers with the likes of Brad Goldsbrough, Dave King, Jamie Waterhouse, Grant Mcalpine and many more competing in AMSAG rallies. There is some quick and experienced drivers that compete in AMSAG events.

I still choose to run my Datsun in PRC trim, even though AMSAG offers more freedoms, so I can compete in both CAMS and AMSAG rallies because I enjoy doing rallies whether they be run under CAMS or AMSAG.

[Ian Bigg]

Originally Posted by bob moore

I agree. I'm all for providing an opportunity for (genuine) newcomers to try out rallying "on the cheap". However if x% of the newcomers can't drive four stages without falling over, the issue of risk management starts to trouble me.

I make no secret of it - worries me as well, but then so do the 1001 things that can go wrong for a fully prepared vehicle and crew ... this year the Meander had 1 rollover and 1 hit tree - the other 3 non-finishers were mechanical ....

The rollover had a cage (so did the rollover cars the year before ... one could almost be fooled into thinking that people with cages drive differently to those without them - but it would probably be more accurate to think that we have been lucky) and I must admit I'm not sure about the hit tree ...

The Intro rally concept exists, I think we need to encourage more 'starters', so I will continue to try & run them as safely and sensibly as possible - the club goes to some length to put assistance and safety as close to these people as possible - FIV / Sweep combined 2 minutes behind the last car etc etc ....

[crowleyaj]

Originally Posted by Bogan

Does seeing them in operation include looking at regs. online? People who put up PDFs in booklet form need a good kicking .

Port entry fee $550 including $132 for catering? That's not real cheap.

T.

Tony,

All AMSAG members get the supp regs for all events mailed to them as a booklet so very few of us get it off the website. I agree that it is a pain in the arts when trying to print them from there and wouldn't be hard for them to sort out. This small annoyance in no way reflects on the quality of the events themselves.

Please note the usual $550 entry fee is usually for a 2 day event with anywhere from 170km to 210km competitive.

Earlier this year they had a one day rally at Jenolan with daylight and night stages, 110km competitive for $250.

The one on Saturday was a rallysprint with 40km competitive for $120.

I enjoy both CAMS and AMSAG rallies, and will continue to compete in both as the budget allows. I will say however, that in the days before 'Starters Rallies' I found AMSAG easier to get into and try as a virgin navigator.

[Bogan]

Maybe if you twist my arm enough we can do one together next year, maybe we'll have to arm wrestle to see who drives though .

T.

[Matt Sosi]

For many years, I was always anti AMSAG, as the comments I heard was always negative.

However, after doing 1 AMSAG at the start of the year, it is definately worth doing. All competitors are relaxed, no stress and if something happens, you can always rejoin the event missing a few stages. I like to do more, and there was a few on the cards this year. However, when the events were on, there was CAMS rallies on that weekend in which I was committed to

In summary, and my opinion, a rally is a rally and in the end of the day, we all enjoy a few beers and talk to one another . Where in motorsport circles do you get that after an event.

Matt

[lxb02]

I have been running AMSAG, I used to run CAMS rallies in the 70's, when I came back to rallies a few years ago I went to AMSAG because it was simpler.

So question would be to BMSC members, what would they want from AMSAG to run in their events. I expect the reasons for the high costs come from the need to attract officials, with more people behind it costs would come down.

As you can see from the previous posts, when they dont need to pay for officals accomodation and meals costs are significanlty reduced. I would expect an AMSAG event in Canberra would be cheaper to run in.

[bob moore]

Originally Posted by Ian Bigg

The rollover had a cage (so did the rollover cars the year before ... one could almost be fooled into thinking that people with cages drive differently to those without them - but it would probably be more accurate to think that we have been lucky) and I must admit I'm not sure about the hit tree ...

Thanks, Ian.

Food for thought, and no obvious answers!


Bob

[Spac]

lxb, several of us have spoken seriously about coming up to an Amsag event, but mostly I think there's two big issues:

1. The fact that we've "all" got rally-rego'd cars, and engineers reports are seen as a big hassle and cost, to try an Amsag event.

2. There was a lot of anti-Amsag propaganda floating around a few years ago within CAMS circles. I've since learned that much of it was simply propaganda, but I think it's basically had the desired effect - that is, it's kept people within the CAMS fold, mostly out of fear of the unknown and an unstated feeling that Amsag events are somehow dodgy.

Why haven't I actually made it up to an Amsag event? Too busy, too lazy, and date clashes...

[DaveTrees]

Originally Posted by Ian Bigg

... one could almost be fooled into thinking that people with cages drive differently to those without them - but it would probably be more accurate to think that we have been lucky

Ian

I don't think it's just luck .... it's about driver attitude.

I have driven a number of intro events in my cage-less car, and while the integrated rollover protection in the Volvo is probably better than most unmodified cars, I certainly drive differently (read : more carefully) than I would in a car with a full ROPS.

Same with the forest navigation events the HRA runs under TRE rules.

I think organisers can help here too - by choosing the right roads, setting appropriate target times, and with minute timing (especially elapsed minute) the emphasis on "saving every possible second" is significantly removed.

Intro-type events aren't primarily about getting a result, IMHO. They are about giving people the opportunity to experience the sport. It really doesn't matter if you end up with a 3-way dead heat for 1st place !

Done appropriately, just the fact that the event is timed doesn't make it inherently more dangerous.

Dave