Australian Rally Grand Final - Page 3 - Brindabella Motor Sport Club

tortfeaser · 05-05-2007, 02:03 AM

Maybe GF location could be like Eurovision, winner gets the right to host the next one. Winner gets the right to choose format - notes or not, etc.

Who cares about TV? This is about sporting achievement, not about prostituting yourself for entertainment. It should be representative of the best state level rallying - if that is in dungers, then let the best dunger win. Classes are the go.

fro · 05-05-2007, 02:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jme

The event qualification MUST reward higher level competitors in competitive classes, not a bloke who manages to dodge all competition in a given class.

Why? The guy in the P1/P2/P3 car that turned and competed against the other guys isn't good enough for you? He spent his money, just like everyone else, he should get the opportunity to test his mettle against his other national counterparts as well.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jme

As the event is aimed at showcasing the 2008 State series to a national TV audience, we MUST promote modern cars. If the event is full of Datsun 1600and LA Lancers it will be an embarrasment.

Why. It's hardly representative of the entire State Championship, is it?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jme

The class structure put up before doesn't include P5 and N4. These are the 2 most competitive classes for Outright. If it is a grandfinal, these "higher level" classes need to be favoured.

They are. Are you telling me that P5/N4 wouldn't fill the top 3 in each state? They get 3 spots to every other classes one?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jme

So basically- no 2wds. No old dungers. It's 2008... the past is gone. Why would we ruin a concept like this aimed at expanding our sport by catering for highly-modified out dated cars, and running it on a crappy roadbook?

Why? These old dungers still constitute more than half the field at most state rounds.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jme

It means that the average clubby competitor finds this competition out of reach... that's good. It's not for average clubman competitors- It's for higher level state competitors IMO. The rules should cater for them.

Why, so we can create another elitist ARC, so we can whinge that anyone that doesn't have a cubic buttload of cash and a Turbo$WD doesn't get a showing? Yeah, that's really turning things around...

Jamie, I'm all for discussion, but I really don't get where you're coming from here.

fro · 05-05-2007, 02:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jme

The Rally Panel won't cater for State Level competitors. They'll cater for the classes, and old dunger dato's and a few classics and excels.

Whether you admit it or not, State fields comprise of more than those running at the front in an EvoRex. Woody paid his entry fee, his tow money and his accomodation like the other State competitors, what's wrong with him getting a little recognition?

It isn't always about outright. In fact, it frequently isn't about outright.

Rhys Llewellyn · 05-05-2007, 08:03 AM

I believe the beauty of State fields is the variety of cars competing. It isn't just 2 manufacturers like the V8 Supercars. As for JME's want for high level competition. The front runners in every class are driving very close to the cars limits and therefore put on a very good show for TV or spectators. If you don't think people like Claude (datto) or Glenn (excel) aren't using all the road and driving sideways, then you probably need to either get in the car with them or visit a spectator point.

This concept is a great idea and should reflect State level competition, not just the outright placings.

Rhys

bgr · 05-05-2007, 12:27 PM

This sounds fantastic! I also really like the way that the concept has been developed and that everyone has now been given an opportunity to contribute their ideas!

SHEPPO R. · 05-05-2007, 12:41 PM

Look at this thread... it starts at post 27.

Craig is the first driver to post who A) has the ability to win the thing B) is a genuine state level competitor or higher C) has the availability of a competitive car etc etc.

post #5 fits all three.

ps. yes he is my brother.
pss. i dont now who "craig n" =.

reg.

Jme · 05-05-2007, 02:08 PM

We have a progression in our sport of Novice/Clubman/State/National.

This grandfinal is meant to cater for the second level of competition.

If you are a grade 3/4/5 driver in a 30yr old 2wd car.... you are not a State Level competitor.

If you enter the events you are still NOT a state level competitor. The NSW Rally Panel makes this perfectly clear. Frank won Oberon- he wasn't a Clubman competitor cause he is a grade 1 driver. He had a P5 car- he was a STATE competitor.

Clubby guys want to have their cake and eat it too.

What about the Grade 1 and 2 competitors? Who's catering for them Fro? If they are Grade 1 and 2- they've done their time, they've spent the money so your point about Woody is muted.

My arguement is that if we are having a National Grandfinal- a competition with some recognition and prestige, we should be sending these competitors. Qualification should be aimed at getting these competitors to the Grand Final. Our better competitors.

If YOU were to promote a decision which allowed a newbie N1 competitor to attend this GrandFinal, over say a NSW State Series stalwart like Chris Giddens, it would be embarrasing. I can't promote that concept.

But I have no doubts that the NSW Rally Panel will push the "non-outright" agenda.

Jme · 05-05-2007, 02:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fro

Why? The guy in the P1/P2/P3 car that turned and competed against the other guys isn't good enough for you? He spent his money, just like everyone else, he should get the opportunity to test his mettle against his other national counterparts as well.

No- not for a Grandfinal. If you race monkeys you deserve to win peanuts. The sport should encourage competition is calsses, and competitors into competitive classes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by fro

Why. It's hardly representative of the entire State Championship, is it?
.

re: old dungers

Exactly- Old Dungers don't represent the State Championship. They are not the car of choice for State Level competitors. They are the car of choice for clubman competitors, and this is recognised by them being eligible for Clubman, and P5 and N4 not. P5 and N4 are therefore the classes, and vehicles of state competitors.

Quote:

Originally Posted by fro

They are. Are you telling me that P5/N4 wouldn't fill the top 3 in each state? They get 3 spots to every other classes one?
Why? These old dungers still constitute more than half the field at most state rounds. .

These classes P5/N4 represent the highest percentage of genuine State Level competitors. Our grading system pushes drivers who achieve into P5/N4 by the structure. They deserve mores spots. I don't think we need to recognise the old dunger "clubby" half of the field- it's 2007!

Quote:

Originally Posted by fro

Why, so we can create another elitist ARC, so we can whinge that anyone that doesn't have a cubic buttload of cash and a Turbo$WD doesn't get a showing? Yeah, that's really turning things around...

but State level rallying is 4wd/Turbo and a $hitload of cash.... you know that mate- that's why there isn't an Evo7 in your garage, but a 180B. If you want to argue a "CLUBMAN Grandfinal Concept" then I'm in agreeance with you Fro, on most things you said. If we argueing a "State Series" Grandfinal leave the P2's at home. We are talking 4wd/turbo/pacenotes/lotsofcash... and catering for the bloke who does have an Evo7 in his garage. That's the game.

Woody · 05-05-2007, 02:36 PM

Ok, I understand your point Jamie but I'd like to compete against some other P1s and a GF like this could actually give me that opportunity. I'm not saying I'm at the level of the outright guys, in fact far from it in both vehicle, budget and experience. But I'm putting in an entry at every event and that gives me the right to be part of the proceedings based on class merit. I'm VERY happy that Mick Long is joining me this year, he was supposed to be there last year too but circumstances got in the way. I didn't choose to be the only real contender, in fact the oppossite. Talk to Mick, I begged him to come along!

I agree with catering for the top guys and am all for it - there is no need to limit the places so much. If we can get 100 competitors then do it. I'll still run at the end of the field, on dug up roads, in the dark earlier than most - but I'll still have a run. I'll still contribute to the event and still put on a show for anyone waiting around at the speccy point. In this time of short numbers at most events I think limiting it in any way is a mistake.

With Mick amongst the pidgeons there will be no relaxing in P1 so 2007 should be good for the class. I hope it brings in more to P1, it's a great cheap(ish)fun class after all and tests more than just your stop/start ability.

Jme · 05-05-2007, 02:39 PM

One thing that has become very clear to me responding to Fro is that we need 2 Grandfinals.

We need a "State- front-runner outright 4wd" event- on pacenotes, all daylight.

We need a "Clubman- 2wd only event", long and hard on a roadbook.

The clubman event should recognise classes, the 4wd event should recognise outright.

The sport is big enough for both.

Jme · 05-05-2007, 02:43 PM

Woody- I understand what you are saying, and the nice-guy in me wants to agree with you. The bastard in me says that you need to beat more than one guy to make a grandfinal. Longy is a great competitor, and you and him deserve a more competitive class.

Jme · 05-05-2007, 03:07 PM

Ok- I'll float this- 14 from each state and the ACT is included as a seperate entity- Ok I know they aren't recognised but by weight of competitors they should be. So that's 7 "regions" if my maths holds out. 98 car field.

Qualification 1st, 2nd, 3rd State Series Outright.
NSW 06 Guesses....BOADEN,WILLIAMS,G.CROKER??

1st P5 (doesn't include placegetters) DARBS??
1st N4 (doesn't include placegetters) BLAIR??
1st P6 ???
1st local competitor in home ARC (or equivilant) HILLS

That's 7 4wd/Turbo's

1st P4 MULHOLLAND ??
1st Excel FARRANT
1st P3/N3 MURRAY
1st P2/N2 ???
1st P1/N1 ???
1st Aussie Car (Commodore/Falcon) PINKO/WILESMITH??
1st U/25 driver in 2wd car MOLLY

... a 7 2wd's

Bogan · 05-05-2007, 07:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jme

If you are a grade 3/4/5 driver in a 30yr old 2wd car.... you are not a State Level competitor.

Yes you are, you're just not a P5/N4 state level competitor.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jme

Frank won Oberon- he wasn't a Clubman competitor cause he is a grade 1 driver. He had a P5 car- he was a STATE competitor.

So why did he choose to go and enter a clubman round? I'd really like to know this, Frank might even be ARC level for all I know, so why did he choose to enter Oberon and not Lithgow or Bega or something like that?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jme

Clubby guys want to have their cake and eat it too.

I'd argue that some state guys want to have their cake and eat it too, with the separation of Clubman in NSW P6 cars (or even others) could have the opportunity for outright results, but the P5/N4 dudes (who are still invited) turn up and most of the time take the outright win at a clubman round. Admittedly some of them are ACT Series because we use clubman rounds, but lots of others aren't.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jme

What about the Grade 1 and 2 competitors? Who's catering for them Fro? If they are Grade 1 and 2- they've done their time, they've spent the money so your point about Woody is muted.

They could step up and compete in the ARC instead of competing against the same old 'dungers' over and over again?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jme

If YOU were to promote a decision which allowed a newbie N1 competitor to attend this GrandFinal, over say a NSW State Series stalwart like Chris Giddens, it would be embarrasing. I can't promote that concept.

So give your feedback like the rest of us, and if you really must then you can take your bat and ball and go play cricket if you don't like the finished product.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jme

We need a "State- front-runner outright 4wd" event- on pacenotes, all daylight.

It's called the ARC. That's the big pond where the big boys play, what you want to have is a one event championship somewhere between ARC and state, and I don't think it's a very good idea.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jme

Qualification 1st, 2nd, 3rd State Series Outright.
NSW 06 Guesses....BOADEN,WILLIAMS,G.CROKER??

1st P5 (doesn't include placegetters) DARBS??
1st N4 (doesn't include placegetters) BLAIR??

If it should come to this system (to the detriment of the 'lower classes' I fail to see why someone who comes fourth or fifth should get a pseudo podium entry to this event. If you come 4th in state and you're P5 then you've come fourth and you miss out.

T.

Spac · 05-05-2007, 10:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jme

...then I'm in agreeance with you ....

No you're bloody well not! The word is agreement. Simple, sensible and is actually a word.

If you win your class in the State Championship, then you're indisputably a state competitor. It doesn't matter whether you're in a 120Y, Excel, VR4 or EVO9 - if you've won your class then you're the state's 'best' competitor in that class, end of story.

craig n · 05-05-2007, 10:21 PM

yeh, it's simple , if it is a grand final for the states then all classes run at state level must be there.
in my opinion i wouldn,t have tv there , we've all seen want that has done for the sport, ayh