NSW State: Notes and Dropped Rounds

[fro]

Interesting that this discussion came out of an event report for a Clubman Round?

As quoted from this thread:

Originally Posted by ropie

After doing the Otago rally last month and then this event I have decided that pace notes are so much safer and better, and after years of saying that notes are un necessary, no more.

For NSW State series for 2008 lets get rally panel to have 5 or 6 events, all noted with competitors all having the same info provided, and lets do away with dropping of rounds. Don't see any WRC or ARC crews getting that easy one. Just one to drop into the pot for discussion.

The views expressed below are my own... I'm sure other RAP members have their own views (and hope they post them here).

Notes: as discussed at several RAP meetings and various forii, notes bring with them additional burden. Whilst there is a growing number of events that seem to do notes well (CAS Rally of Lithgow, the upcoming Myall Stages), they do mean an additional burden in time away to do reconnaissance. There's also considerations of event organisers wanting to run events that are pace-noted, and ensuring that the pace-noting is equitable, and fits in with local community concerns and forestry usage conditions.

The Jemba-system (as I believe is used in NZ) apparently helps minimise the time required to write pace notes, but comes with some large purchase cost considerations. I also note that some competitors weren't satisfied with the output of the Jemba notes at Otago (as mentioned here).

That the NSWRC has adopted two pace-noted rounds for 2007 is acknowledgement that there is a demand for pace-notes. I believe the NSWRAP is adopting a "wait and see" approach, trying to guage competitor and organiser feedback with a view to determining future directions.

Summary: I'm not a fan of notes, but understand that they are a significant part of modern rallying. I think the variation within the championship at the moment is good, but am open to feeback and discussion. I think that any subsequent discussion needs to be part of a larger discussion on the direction of the sport.

Dropping of rounds: WRC and ARC are meant to be the next level up from State competition. The additional flexiblity of dropping rounds for State level makes sense for those of us that don't rally professionally, and have lives outside of rallying to manage.

Even at ARC level, the expectations for travel and budget were recognised in the regulations for the "Rally Challenge" (previoucly known as "BP Challenge") through the nomination of rounds for participation, requiring only four of the six ARC rounds.

Summary: I don't see the problem with the championship structure with dropped rounds, and am yet to be convinced that it needs to change.



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[global]

I have (one of the few around) run in NZ on Jemba notes.

They are great for the state and clubman competitor. The are very easy and offer what I refer to 80 -90% of your own notes. They are fair better than all the effort required to do your own recce - less time, less effort and less expense than running your own car.

Against popular belief - you can run them without a single pass recce as long as you treat them as 80 -90% of a your own notes. In NZ a NZRC round has a single pass recce - a regional round (similar to state) has (in 2002) no pass - run on Jemba 'safety notes' only.

They are not 100% esp for those with aspirations to be a ARC / WRC champion. However they are much better than a roadbook.

In NZ they do cost - At $200, 225 - $250 a set or so depending o event. Which as I state they are cheaper than your own recce (fuel, time, wear and tear). When we where trying to get somewhere we bought them - if it was just for a fang and to do skids we ran on the roadbook. So simple really - no one is forcing you to use them.

Overall they do make alot of sense.

[Marcus]

Personally in favour of a one pass recce with standardised safety notes.

Doing Taree and realising we could have gone a hell of a lot faster if the driver had any idea how to read the local roads (Never competed there before), plus co-driver really having an issue with being invovlved in the event, I'm more in favour of notes than before. There's just this "fun" factor that I enjoy more with notes, bugger the safety aspect, I think notes are just plain more fun.

From a n00b perspective, my co-driver had utterly no idea road book events existed. He thought all rallying was noted until after he got into the sport and after doing Taree, he wasn't too happy with the fact he was in the main just ballast and booking in. Notes to him makes it feel like he's properly involved and also responsible in a good way for the pace of the car and safety of the crew - I think that point tends to be overlooked. Co-drivers are part of the sport and what they like should be taken note of too.

I've only done 5 events since coming back into the sport after a decade on the sidelines, three this year and one so short it really doesn't count. Pace notes may make the day very long, but the positives of being able to extract more confidence out of yourself, crew involvement and just plain fun do outweigh in my mind the negatives.

[Jme]

Firstly... of course the State Series should be on pacenotes. It's the fairest and safest way to run the series, and pacenotes will attract back to the series many competitors who won't run at present because the feel they are at a huge disadvantage blind.

Personally, I think the best model is 4 events- all count, pacenote Saturday afternoon and Rally early Sunday morning. The rallies should be 3 or 4 stages repeated for approx 120-140k's competitive.

1 event North, 1 event West, 1 event South and 1 in the ACT.

Each region can then have a "regional" series consisting of another 3 blind events, and this is the "Clubman" tier of the sport. Obviously clubman, as it is now, will go. Similar structure to ACT Gold Cup/Clubman based on NSW State seeding list for eligibilty etc. That's the model I'd like to see.

That's a possible 16 rallies (some might take on 2 regions I guess)... it's alot, but I think the structure would be an improvement.

[Bogan]

Would the gross number of entries in rallies increase or decrease under this model?

If there's more people out in the forests each year then anything is good except if you're one of the ones who don't like it and quit I guess, but how many would?

T.

[Marcus]

Originally Posted by Bogan

Would the gross number of entries in rallies increase or decrease under this model?

If there's more people out in the forests each year then anything is good except if you're one of the ones who don't like it and quit I guess, but how many would?

T.

One or two people MIGHT quit in a huff and one or two may fell like coming back or goign to an event they not have. But in my opinion, the reasons why people are staying or going in rallying has very little about pace notes / road books and much more about other issues that need to be addressed.

Lithgow / Shakedown didn't get it's reputation for being on pace notes - It got it for being a damn good event and the fact a lot of crews came out to play was evidence that you run an event with what crews appreciate, they will come. I suspect after seeing the TV footage and also the opinions of Ed Ordynski elsewhere in media and online, Rally of Lithgow will probably be over subscribed next year. Ed's stated focus on club / state rallying is also very welcome, it shows he gets it.

[Jme]

Originally Posted by Bogan

Would the gross number of entries in rallies increase or decrease under this model?

If there's more people out in the forests each year then anything is good except if you're one of the ones who don't like it and quit I guess, but how many would?

T.

Your never gunna keep everyone happy regardless of the model used, but I think that generally it's safe to assume that "competitor friendly" rallies will attract entries. What is "competitor friendly" depends on many aspects. The big 2 are MONEY and TIME.

I think by lowering the number of events in a pacenoted series, as opposed to a "blind" series, it offsets both of these to a certain degree. Time and Money are often linked with competitors because of the amount of time needed to be away from work etc... many small business owners etc.

I think PRESTIGE is important, and attracts competitors- and this is closely linked with even-handed COMPETITION. TRADITION plays a part...

Pacenotes will IMO add more value to the NSW State series. I'm leading the co-driver series at the moment with a heap of blokes who officiated, and can't be bothered chasing it. I'm not prepared to be hosed by locals at the Bay or at Coff's. or be shafted at the Natcap etc. I can't grasp the concept of being handed outright points for doing a road-closure. The NSWRP needs to inject value and prestige back into the NSW State Series somehow, and pacenotes are a small part of the answer.

We sit around for hours before most events anyway... lets us onto the roads to pacenote them! Over the years the library of notes will build up, and networks will form between crews that use similar systems. Time and cost issues related to notes will become minor.

[Jme]

The event everyone was talking about to me up at Clybucca was the Myall Stages. Get up to that... it's the way forward in terms of structure, and it's going to attract a quality field from all indications, It's pacenoted, it's within reach of Sydney, the entry fee is "friendly", it's not "rushed" like Lithgow was... you pacenote, then have a dinner/drivers briefing... go to sleep, wake up and rally, late lunch presentation.... it's just a smart event.

Last year we got about 20 entries. This year I reckon we will get 50.

[afifield]

Personally, I love notes. I can commit to things that I normally wouldn't on a road book, and that makes me feel a heap better about competing.

Having said that, the ultimate challenge is to go as fast as you can on a road book. To me, the state championship should be about the team that does the best job in all areas. Notes should not be the whole championship.

We're planning to be at the Myall Stages for four reasons:
- It's on notes. We're only doing one event this year, so we'll try and get the most out of it.
- Graham puts on a bloody good event.
- We don't need suits.
- I haven't run at Bulladelah since Ron Dean last ran an event up there (11 years??).


As for dropping rounds, keep the flexibility and let people use it as they see fit. For some it will be an event they don't like. For others it will be because the car isn't ready. For some there will be other reasons.

I think the officiating points is a good idea. Just because 20 people are leading the championship after one round doesn't make it a bad thing.

I think the officiating points and dropping rounds are very closely linked in terms of how people "play" the championship. Somewhere in there is a good balance.

[Miss]

Originally Posted by Jme

... the State Series should be on pacenotes. It's the fairest and safest way to run the series, and pacenotes will attract back to the series many competitors who won't run at present because the feel they are at a huge disadvantage blind..

Originally Posted by Jme

... "competitor friendly" rallies will attract entries. What is "competitor friendly" depends on many aspects. The big 2 are MONEY and TIME..

Perhaps time and money are why "all those people" have left, not because of parity Who are "all those people" anyway?

Originally Posted by Jme

We sit around for hours before most events anyway... lets us onto the roads to pacenote them! Over the years the library of notes will build up, and networks will form between crews that use similar systems.

Networks? How would this work, exactly? Are you suggesting that people borrow each other's notes? That two drivers go out in one car and pacenote, then make a copy? Or perhaps that from one year to the next people should re-use their notes, or someone else's, or send one crew out to check their (or someone else's pre-written notes) for changes then distribute the changes amonst their like-minded counterparts?

Originally Posted by Jme

Time and cost issues related to notes will become minor.

And I very much doubt that, for the majority of competitors, time and money will become minor issues with a greater number of rallies being pacenoted. There is no more time in a day if you've had a lot of experience with notes, you just write better notes. It doesn't cost less in fuel and recce tyres, it costs the same regardless of your experience level.

Anyway Jme, as navs we're hardly in a position to dictate to our drivers which events they should spend their money on*.


*Although some may have a high degree of influence, eh Claude

[Spac]

I like pace noted rallies, but I see them as a 'novelty' rather than sometihng that there's a pressing need for.

They bring some advantages (speed, possible reduction of the advantage gained from local knowledge, competitor self-responsibility, 'training' for the ARC if that floats your boat, etc) and some disadvantages (time and money doing recce, speed, etc).

Whether you think the advantages outweigh the disadvantages or not is an entirely personal opinion - there are no hard and fast, right or wrong answers.

Personally, I can't help but think that the solution is something loosely along the lines of:
Three or four round Pace Noted State Championship.
Five to Eight round road-booked Premier State Series.

Essentially, there'd be two state 'championships' - one for lovers of pace notes, and one for the rest of us. Calling the noted series the "championship" also removes the need for driving suits and the rest of the carp for the non-pace-note lovers.
This would seem to suit both groups better than any other solution.

The "Premier State Series" could be in addition to, or in place of, the existing Clubman Series (or a mix of both). The way I envisonage it, it would NOT be a simple re-naming of the Clubman Series.

[Daz555]

Firstly a disclaimer.... I will continue to run in the State Championship for as long as I can afford to do so irrespective of whether the series runs notes, road books, dropped rounds or awards max points for officialling....

If I have a preference though it would be to continue the 6 round championship, allow 1 round to be dropped and encourage organisers wherever possible to adapt an event format similar to Lithgow... Recce in the morning ( even if it's just one pass ) and rally in the afternoon / evening....

Pacenotes certainly levels the playing field for the teams pushing hard at the front and definitely makes it safer for the whole field... I also believe that it is kinder on the cars due to knowing exactly what is coming up and where the rough bits start and stop....

We only managed 1 pass on 2 of the stages at Lithgow and of those 2 stages I think I really only made on note change at speed to one corner... If time is a limitation and if only 1 pass of the stages is possible then I would still support that...

I have spoken to a number of people since Lithgow and not one person is saying bad things about running on notes.... I think it just takes a while for people to become comfortable writing them and driving to them.... In my opinion rallying is a much more rewarding experience on notes than not.... Particularly in the dark....

[Bogan]

I'd be interested to know given the choice who would do notes and who would use a road book. What percentage of the Lithgow entrants did recce. and notes?

T.

[Annatastic]

I loved using notes, simple as that. I enjoy being able to have greater influence over how fast and committed a driver is and the trust and teamwork that's involved...

However IMO while events are primarily focussed on being competitor friendly, they aren’t just about the competitors. The recce component puts an additional burden on the organising club and the officials that have to spend not only the rally, but also the recce in the forest.
There is also, whether it’s generally accepted or not, additional cost to the competitor in the form of fuel, accommodation etc that would otherwise not be incurred. While this may not be an issue for some, it will be to varying degrees for others and might be the issue that sees them put their car in the shed.
IMO, 2 pace-noted State rounds is the right balance for where the State Series is at the moment and it should be given more than 1 season before changing/moving away from this concept.

SA runs a completely pace-noted State Series – I think Lisi and Ethan should tell us about the ‘networks of sharing’ that exist over there. From what I’ve heard it’s not the friendliest Series. While that may not bother some people, for reasonably non-competitive spodes like me, it matters. If the vibe of the Series were to change into anything like what I’ve heard SA has now, I’d certainly walk away from it.

Originally Posted by Bogan

I'd be interested to know given the choice who would do notes and who would use a road book.

Lithgow is not the best measure for this - we all got pre-baked notes.... perhaps the results would be different if you had to write notes from scratch?

[Griffo]

The issue of local knowledge always gets thrown around to try & justify why pace notes would be better. Just one thing i don't get is if local knowledge is such a big factor how do people, for example Michael Boaden, have all this local knowledge all over NSW? I mean he is on the pace everywhere he goes.
There are no pace notes that can substitute for talent. Rallying is more about a whole series of things rolled into one to make a complete package. Ability to read the road, car control, car set up, determination, realiability & most of all enjoyment.
The set up of a couple of pace noted events aswell as traditional blind rallies to make up the State Champoinship would get my vote.
Maybe we could invent brave pills for those missing a key element in their whole package.
At the end of the day we all have to admit that someone is always going to come along who is better & faster & stop looking for excuses.