ARC "control tyre" IDEA

[Bobesh]

Originally Posted by TX3 Rally

Dry weather
Michelin PWRC 1.3sec/km quicker than Michelin customer-spec

Wet weather
Michelin PWRC 1.6sec/km quicker than Michelin customer-spec

this makes for some interesting assumptions !

lets be conservative and assume PWRC tyre is only 1sec/km quicker,

is it then reasonable to assume that if all competitors were given access to same tyres then last Sunday both Evans and Bates would've finished 6th and 7th respectively (behind Guest, Herridge, Lowndes, Windus, Raymond) ?

competitive distance was 92km and difference between 1st (Evans) and 7th (Raymond was 91.4 sec),
difference between 2nd (Bates) and 7th (Raymond) was 32.6 sec


and I'm not arguing that PWRC tyre is that much quicker, but if in fact it was, then I would also have to think it's unfair for some to have the privilege to use them while others aren't allowed anywhere near them.

[TX3 Rally]

Originally Posted by Bobesh

this makes for some interesting assumptions !

It has certainly given us some valuable data and was time well spent. It will probably influence both thinking and tactics next year.

lets be conservative and assume PWRC tyre is only 1sec/km quicker,

is it then reasonable to assume that if all competitors were given access to same tyres then last Sunday both Evans and Bates would've finished 6th and 7th respectively (behind Guest, Herridge, Lowndes, Windus, Raymond) ?

competitive distance was 92km and difference between 1st (Evans) and 7th (Raymond was 91.4 sec),
difference between 2nd (Bates) and 7th (Raymond) was 32.6 sec

Unfortunately it's not as clear as that. I believe that Dean may be on the PWRC-spec Pirelli's, Guesty had a limited supply of PWRC-spec Michelins so he had them for some stages but not others, no idea what Spencer or the Raymonds are running, and unsure whether Windus had any of the PWRC tyres or not. Also Neal had some problems for part of the weekend which is why he was off the pace a bit. Simon may have backed off a little once Glenney was out on Sunday as well.

and I'm not arguing that PWRC tyre is that much quicker, but if in fact it was, then I would also have to think it's unfair for some to have the privilege to use them while others aren't allowed anywhere near them.

Careful Peter - keep thinking like that and we will nominate you for the chairmanship of ARCom! Personally I see no need for PWRC tyres in the ARC - all it does is increase the distance between the have's and the have not's, which then means that others have to spend more to try to keep up.

[Kaptainballistik]

Originally Posted by TX3 Rally

Unfortunately it's not as clear as that.

Simon may have backed off a little once Glenney was out on Sunday as well.

Put Simon in the Ford and it will be Quicker!

[TX3 Rally]

Originally Posted by Kaptainballistik

Put Simon in the Ford and it will be Quicker!

maybe, maybe not. I think a lot of people under-estimate how good a driver Guesty is - remember too that he is driving a car that is constantly having things stuff up on it through no fault of his own. If Simon is quicker than Guesty then it would not be by very much I think.

[TX3 Rally]

Some more info on the tests (basically just for anyone that is interested).

We did two days of testing on the PWRC Pirelli's on dry stages initially, then part way through the third morning (weather still dry) the crew slipped a set of the customer-spec Michelins on without telling Khaled that he wasn't on Pirelli's and we went back out again. We had travelled a bit less than 2km when Khaled asked me if the crew had definently changed tyres before we went back out and I said yes they had. He immediately replied "Something wrong with these - front tyres no turn-in grip". We kept going but Khaled wasn't happy with the tyres. We kept swapping between Pirelli PWRC's, Michelin PWRC's and Michelin customer-spec tyres for the next 5 hours, each time without telling Khaled which ones were fitted, and each time he could pick which ones were fitted. Khaled noted that the Michelin PWRC's had superior grip than the Pirelli's in both a straight line and also turning in the front, but that they tended to make the rear slide a bit more past the apex of medium corners but there was no noticable difference on the faster corners.

It was wet for the last two days of the test and so we did some more back-to-back testing, but no matter what we tried we couldn't get the Michelin PWRC's to match the Pirelli's in the wet - Khaled reported that the Michelin's noticably lacked turn-in and the back end lateral movement that we had experienced in the dry while taking medium corners was even greater in the wet.

[SHEPPO R.]

And those "confidential spec PWRC tyres"? I'm running in the rallysprint out at Kowen forest tomorrow. Come along and analyse them, because I run them on my 180B

build an evo 9, spend aprox $150'000 and front up to the ARC,and try buying them then ????

Let Bates/Evans/Ordynski have a drive of the Ford

the weekend before nsw, simon did a drive day with glen brinkman in his evo 9 ( smickly builtcar by the way ) and says the evo 9 is as good as his car...... scott pedder drove a brand new 9 in NZ and stated that is would blow his evo 8 easy,a car that he and westy were able to match & beat simon in not 12 months ago.

my idea was aimed at keeping "everybody" happy, no lost sponsorship, tyre manufactures are assesed on there results, but the main part to consider is it would create a "FAIR PLAYING FIELD"..... a team can choose their car, driver, nav, car set up, suspension, horsepower output from all the options avail......but at the moment, they can not CHOOSE from ALLthe tyres avail......

i always believe the cream will always rise to the top..... it makes winning all the more sweeter......
reg.

[TX3 Rally]

Simplest thing would be a list of approved tyres like they produce a tyre list for tarmac rallying here - to be on the list the tyre must be available at any ARC event to any competitor for no more than say $250 - that way those that have tyre deals can still keep their deals, and everyone else isn't at a disadvantage or forced to spend squillions on tyres to keep up.

[Mark]

...Control Tyre survey results are out:
http://www.rally.com.au/data/rally.c...%20Results.pdf

or on the front page news article linkage.
They say that it now has to be discussed by Arcom/whoever.

I reckon the numbers indicate that it will get up - if they can find a tyre sponsor.

Looks like about 60% of people were positive about it.
Seems to be a link to encouraging people into the ARC as well.
Majority wanted it for the State-level piggyback event as well.
I'm a bit confused as to where there is such as difference in results between Question 2 ("What are your feelings on the following aspects in the event that a control tyre was to be introduced into the NEC ARC?") - 60% are supportive - and Question 5 ("If a control tyre was to be introduced to the NEC ARC, what is your opinion on the following?") where about 80% are supportive of the control tyre. Maybe I'm just tired! Someone can feel free to correct me...

Worth a quick look anyway.

Mark

[rallyfiend]

I'll be interested to read what the current registered competitors have said.

[Livewireshock]

Maybe the concept of a control tyre should focus on a control spec rather than a single product from a single company. Produce a spec that states the contruction & compound of a tyre with quality control & assessment done by the ARC.

This way any tyre company can make a tyre for the ARC. The performance will be close to being on par & current sponsorship deals could continue. It will ensure that all tyres will be available for close to the same cost per tyre too.

Otherwise the only alternative would be to have a generic tyre built by one company but is able to be branded by other tyre brands. This occurs in other forms of motorsport. The generic company makes money from selling 100% of the tyres despite that they carry another tyre company's logo.

To make control tyres mandatory across the ARC will rip too much valuable sponsorship money away from privateers who will not be able to afford a new control tyre.

[Daz555]

A control tyre you say..... Yep... That will save us all money.... Remember when we were provided a control fuel... ELF WRF... More than twice the price of pump fuel that plenty of us ran beforehand.... I look forward to trying my new Micherelli for $450+ a tyre.....

[Ric Cary]

Originally Posted by Livewireshock

Maybe the concept of a control tyre should focus on a control spec rather than a single product from a single company. Produce a spec that states the contruction & compound of a tyre with quality control & assessment done by the ARC.

This way any tyre company can make a tyre for the ARC. The performance will be close to being on par & current sponsorship deals could continue. It will ensure that all tyres will be available for close to the same cost per tyre too.

Otherwise the only alternative would be to have a generic tyre built by one company but is able to be branded by other tyre brands. This occurs in other forms of motorsport. The generic company makes money from selling 100% of the tyres despite that they carry another tyre company's logo.

To make control tyres mandatory across the ARC will rip too much valuable sponsorship money away from privateers who will not be able to afford a new control tyre.

That's sure to work the manufacturers will fall over themselves for 300 tyres a year, rush out and make a special tyre just for the ARC

[AV1611]

I am assuming that a control tyre is going to get up. And that seems like a pretty safe assumption at the moment.

The "works" teams will do a lot of testing with the control tyres, particularly in the area of custom hand grooving of the tyres. And they will go quicker than those who don't do this research. Similar result as now. Those who have resources (be they Talent, Time, or Treasure) will get more out of the control tyres than anyone else can.

I never thought that the goal of motorsport was to see how close we could make the result, but to see who was fastest. No?

[raybak]

I just hope that they make a 14" tyre under $200. If they don't then it suxxxxxxxxx!!!!!!!!

I think they need to be very careful about going the control tyre route. It will take a lot of privateer support out of the ARC.

Ray Baker

[Ric Cary]

Believe me when I tell you a control tyre supplier was ready to sign and pay the money several weeks ago, until a whoo up was given, the question was asked "where's the tender document" blank looks!!! "where's the various tyre suppliers offers" blank looks again.
But x is ready to sign and pay now........ no consultation, no tender, no deal, was the message passed to those who were ready to railroad it in.
So all the lip service in the world isn't going to change it, it will happen maybe not quite as BS laden as the Elf deal was but its coming. If you think its about saving competitors money rather than helping the RallyCorp coffers ( who one might think are having difficulties holding up there end of the funds that they are due to return to the sport) you are sorely mistaken