ARC "control tyre" IDEA

[SHEPPO R.]

there has been a lot of talk about the idea of a "control tyre" in the ARC of late.
I have now heard from two seperate sources ( 1 everage, 1 very good) that the rumour is that a deal has allready been struck with pirelli for 2008 onwards...... ???? dont know what to say.

forgetting that rumor.

HERES MY IDEA.

Each tyre manufacturer can nominate ONE SINGLE tyre from there range as there "ARC SPEC TYRE". .... heres how it would work.

** any tyre manufacturer wishing to have there tyres compete in the ARC nominates a SINGLE tyre, size, pattern, compund as their "ARC SPEC TYRE".
** EXAMPLE.
** Michelin nominate there " 17/65-15 km pattern, "8" compound" tyre as their ARC SPEC tyre.
** this tyre is made avail to ANY & ALL ARC registed competitior wishing to compete and be listed in ARC results.
** the tyre has an "ARC" price... same for everyone.
** if you are get a sponsorship deal with your tyre manufacturer, it must be listed in some way, so everybody knows, and nobody gets cheaper than anyone else.
** the maunfacturer has to give a date for pre orders, so competitors know when they have to order tyrs buy, so they can never be left short.
** a few different sizes would be nominated to cover F1600 ( not s1600)and anyother classes.
** the tyre rule is reduced to 9 tyres per single day event ( 2 sets & 1 spare).
** s1600 & grpN use the same tyre.
** tyre price is set at a maximum, so no manufacture can pump up the price, so only factory teams could afford their tyre.

** ADVANTAGES
.
** no lost tyre sponsorships.
** privateers can choose the same tyre as factory car.
** anyone can run any tyre they choose... factory or not.
** manufactures can show how good there product is.
** competitors can change to different brands as they see fit..... different roads, different brand.
**tyre companys need too stock a smaller range of tyres, compounds & sizes.... helps reduce $ outlay... therefor keeps the price down.
** A FAIR PLAYING FEILD FOR EVERYONE.

DISADVANTAGES
.
you tell me.

ps..... the cream allways rises to the top.

[AV1611]

There has never really been an issue about tyres up until now. Yes, some people have access to tyres that are better than what others have access to. Tough luck. Drive fast enough, and the manufacturers may want to give you access to their best rubber. If you don't drive fast enough to attract their interest, the better rubber is not going to help you much.

This wasn't an issue until Michael Guest started complaining that they would never catch the Toyotas unless they could use the same tyres that Toyota used. Personally, I think the rubber he should be given access to is a rubber dummy to suck on for a while.

It seems that this whole "issue" is that Ford are working behind the scenes to get what they want.

I sent an email outlining all of this in much more detail to Australian RallySport News after they ran an article on it, and not suprisingly, they didn't publish my letter!

I believe mousse tyres are banned in Australia. That is probably a good thing, and that is probably as far as it needs to go. Some of these "factory only" tyres eventually make their battered and bruised way down to us clubman guys, and we really appreciate them!

[albert wild]

What plannet have you been on mate? Toyota build a world rally car to compete in group N, have access to cofidential spec PWRC tires that are worth a second a kilometer, thats a well known fact and you reckon Guesty's got no reason to be upset. As far as Ford trying to get what they want behind the scenes, I reckon Toyota have done a dam fine job of extracting every possible freedom to put the Corolla where it is today. Get rid of Even's tractor, which they are doing for the ROM, bring in a controlled tyre and let the games begin I say. I think all ARC competitors should have access to the same rubber, why should tyres dictate results.

[Swill]

Av your smoking crack mate.

[AV1611]

Hi Albert

Welcome to BMSC's forum. And hopefully, welcome to reality.

Firstly, I've been on planet earth. I've been around rallying for a long, long time. Some on this forum like me, some don't. But most know who I am, and know when I'm barking up the right tree and when I'm not.

Generally speaking, coming out swinging in your first post on this forum won't win you too many friends. You might want to consider that.

Now, down to business...

Toyota are running a World Rally Car, are they? Active diffs? No. Sequential paddle shifting? No. Mega braking package? No. Exactly what are you talking about? If you know anything about anything, you know the Corolla is running an ST205 Group N engine and drivetrain.

And those "confidential spec PWRC tyres"? I'm running in the rallysprint out at Kowen forest tomorrow. Come along and analyse them, because I run them on my 180B. And they're worth 1 second per km? Probably sucks that I'm only running them on my front wheels. At the back I'm running Pirellis. If the fronts are 1 second per km faster than the Pirellis (like Guesty's), then on each of these 7km stages my rear end is going to arrive 7 seconds after my front end. You had better come along and watch, cause this is going to be something to see!

Tyres don't dictate the results. It isn't tyres that keep breaking the rear suspension on the Fords. It isn't tyres that caused Guesty to roll on the first stage of ROC (that was a pacenoting error, pure and simple). It isn't tyres that result in Windus spinning in every second stage. (I'll let you figure out what might be the problem there, but I'll give you a clue - the problem might be inside the cabin).

Anyway, welcome aboard. Listen up for a while, and ask a few questions. Because there are people here worth listening to, and there are people who can give you real answers if you can ask the right questions.

Cheers!
Ben.

[Rallyray]

Originally Posted by AV1611

Tyres don't dictate the results.

Because Quite clearly you have run a high powered 4WD before.

Tyres do matter... Its likely you probably can't feel the difference between a Maxsport and a Michelin...

[Martino]

So Albert, how come privaters as still beating the Fords. Maybe if it was a Toyota 1-2, Ford 3-4 all year, the complaint might have a bit more relevants.

Sounds like a spoilt child complaining that someone else at school has a better toy.
Maybe Michael should invest in one of these, heard they corner really well

[AV1611]

I said "tyres don't dicate the results".

Ray said "tyres do matter".

I didn't say that tyres don't matter. In the context of what I was saying, you will notice that the point I was making was that Ford have bigger issues to worry about than tyres.

And because I haven't rallied a high powered 4WD turbo before, does that somehow limit my ability to tell the difference between tyres? Sure you aren't being a bit of snob, Ray?

I'm going to get out there and have fun with the equipment I've got. If I get beaten by a guy who has access to a high powered 4WD while I'm running a 180B, I'm not going to lose much sleep about it.

Oh, and on our car, so far I've run Yokohamas, Pirellis, and Michelins. I can GUARANTEE you that you can put any one of those tyres on my car whilst I'm sitting in the driver's seat, then send me out for a drive, and I'll be able to tell you which of those tyres I'm running. They all have quite easily distinguished characteristics.

[Rallyray]

Originally Posted by AV1611

In the context of what I was saying, you will notice that the point I was making was that Ford have bigger issues to worry about than tyres.

Point Taken. Will you also agree that allowing Ford or anyone to run the same tyres will reduce the gap between them and Toyota?

Will you also agree that Running inferior rubber will make it easier to crash and break things compared to someone running Superior Rubber?

Tyres DO dictate the results? Maybe? Just a tiny bit?

Originally Posted by AV1611

And because I haven't rallied a high powered 4WD turbo before, does that somehow limit my ability to tell the difference between tyres? Sure you aren't being a bit of snob, Ray?

Possibly. Didn't intend to be... Everyone knows i'm an easy going guy who loves to attack each corner and consume Burbs....

Originally Posted by AV1611

I'm going to get out there and have fun with the equipment I've got. If I get beaten by a guy who has access to a high powered 4WD while I'm running a 180B, I'm not going to lose much sleep about it.

Amen... We Agree.

Originally Posted by AV1611

Oh, and on our car, so far I've run Yokohamas, Pirellis, and Michelins. I can GUARANTEE you that you can put any one of those tyres on my car whilst I'm sitting in the driver's seat, then send me out for a drive, and I'll be able to tell you which of those tyres I'm running. They all have quite easily distinguished characteristics.

My point... So you can notice the difference between tyres... So Can Michael Guest!

[AV1611]

But can he tell the difference by feel, or by looking at the timesheets when he gets to a finish control, and then say "the reason why Simon hosed me in there was because I'm on lesser tyres"?

I honestly believe the best performance enhancement for the Ford team would be to get 2 x new drivers. And I'm not having a go at Guesty - he can at least make a living out of writing articles for Fishing magazines, as anyone who reads the various fishing mags can testify.

Here is the essence of what I'm saying, and this is a purely hypothetical situation: Let Bates/Evans/Ordynski have a drive of the Ford, using the same tyres that Ford are currently using, and these guys will get consistently better stage times with that equipment than Guest and Windus are extracting from it.

If Michelin's tyre is really all that much better than Pirelli's tyre, well, this isn't the first time in the history of motorsport that someone's tyres weren't up to snuff. Such is life. Performance is supposed to improve the breed, isn't it?

Assuming that currently Toyota get their tyres for free.
Assuming that currently Ford get their tyres for free...
If you go to a single manufacturer tyre model, probably NOBODY gets their tyres for free. And this can't be better for the sport. No free tyres makes the sport more expensive, even for the front runners, and the net effect of that will be that they will be offloading their old tyres for a much greater fee, in order to reduce their financial losses.

[sheps]

My brother and I have different thoughts on the matter...

And above I believe there is wrong and right..

control Tyres

I think a control tyre is wrong, as people who have help with Tyres from now and past Myself, Eli, Pedder, Simon, Goldie.. And the list would go on and on and on. Would have probably had to stop doing the ARC.

I heard a story where the control tyre deal has already been handed to Pirelli. Interesting to see if that pops it head up. Not to mention WRONG

Limit of Tyres.

This has to be brought down to a limit that people can afford and allow them to try and be more competitive.

12 is CRAZY I think even 8 a day is crazy. At the moment the good Tyres are $400.00 a tyre 12 a day 6 events a year $57600.00 a year in Tyres. That’s $1107.69 a week out of your weekly wage just for Tyres. YEA RIGHT.

Rally Queensland we were running 4th outright and used 8 Tyres over the weekend. Two days.
Coffs State round. We finished 3rd outright using 4 tyres. and they were the softer tyre avail rather that 9's that would last longer.

When I started the ARC there was over a dozen competitors that would do each day on 4 of the good Tyres, so why do we need a max of 12.

Say 6 Tyres a day saves $28,800.00 a year.


WRC V retail Tyres

To allow factory teams to use WRC Tyres that are not avail to other customers is against the spirit of competition and or the CAMS rules. All competition should be fair. The Tyres are better and do allow unfair competition. And should be banned.

It is not a case where you have a option, for example i can only afford say a falken so i winge about pirilli or i have a gemini so i winge about the bloke in a evo 3. With WRC against retail you do not have a choice YOU CAN NOT BUY THEM. Not Fair.

[Glen]

AV, a few quick points

• Guest is running on Michelin not Pirelli. He's gripe is that he can't run on the WRC spec tyres and must use the customer spec tyres
• I have never run on Michelin tyres before, but the Pirelli WRC spec rubber is close to a second per km faster than the equivalent customer spec tyre on the same car with the same driver at the same test
• You are right when you say that the Corolla is not a WRCar, but it's not quite as standard as you mention. It does have a Mitsubishi active centre differential and a Subaru turbo as allowed during the parity process.

[Mark]

6 tyres a day seems like a reasonable rate:
-2 new ones on the back to last all day (110km).
-2 new ones on the front to start and another two every 50 - 60competitive kms.

Maxsports all around



Mark

[Ben Wilson]

Originally Posted by Mark

6 tyres a day seems like a reasonable rate:
-2 new ones on the back to last all day (110km).
-2 new ones on the front to start and another two every 50 - 60competitive kms.

Maxsports all around



Mark

Nah - Offroad pattern light truck tyres, that way they will last forever so there's no reason to buy new ones..

[TX3 Rally]

Both Toyota and Ford are running Michelins, Toyota have been running Michelins for the last few years and this year Ford switched to Michelins as well, but Toyota had a deal that ensured that only they would be able to be supplied the Michelins PWRC-spec tyres, meaning that Ford have had to use the customer-spec Michelins.

As for how much quicker the PWRC Michelins are over the customer-spec ones - well I just happened to have my butt in a car a few weeks ago when we tested our PWRC Pirelli's against both PWRC-spec and customer-spec Michelins during our six day gravel test (we only had 8 of the PWRC-spec Michelins to use).

Results were -
Dry weather
Michelin PWRC 0.1sec/km quicker than Pirelli PWRC
Michelin PWRC 1.3sec/km quicker than Michelin customer-spec

Wet weather
Pirelli PWRC 0.2sec/km quicker than Michelin PWRC
Michelin PWRC 1.6sec/km quicker than Michelin customer-spec

I hope that anyone on here that is going to a gravel WRC round next year will do a rain dance for us

I'm heading over for tarmac testing in a few weeks so it will be interesting to see how the Pirelli tarmac tyres fare.

Guesty had access to a limited number of the PWRC-spec Michelins for the first time last weekend after Toyota relented a little, and he was able to put them to good use, winning at least one stage.

As for those that say that Guesty and Windus should be replaced, well I think that Guesty is doing a good job with what he has to work with, and considering the lack of time in the car and especially the lack of testing. Windus is paying for the drive so it's a bit hard to say whether he should be replaced as I don't know who else has the funds available to replace him.