40 year old rally cars (was Corsa Media Coverage)

[Matt Dyne]

PS...As an aside...a topic that has been done to death (so split the thread or delete this bit) was Claude Murray's comment in today's paper claiming how good rallying is that a 40 year old car can win an event. Not taking anything away from Claude, a win is a win, but I think one of the image issues we have to grapple with is why is rallying all about 40 year old cars?

[IYK000]

PS...As an aside...a topic that has been done to death (so split the thread or delete this bit) was Claude Murray's comment in today's paper claiming how good rallying is that a 40 year old car can win an event. Not taking anything away from Claude, a win is a win, but I think one of the image issues we have to grapple with is why is rallying all about 40 year old cars?

Maybe because 4wd turbo cars driven at 60% are about as exciting as watching paint dry!! Claude drove his 40 year old car really well, driving closer to the limit than any of the potooosh mobiles and thoroughly deserved the victory. The S2000 corolla was pretty good though!!

[Factor]

Originally Posted by Spac

As to the 40 year old car, I dispute that it really is an "image problem". But that topic deserves another thread.

No image problem at all - I think what clod was saying is you dont have to have the latest toy to win in rallying - just have to drive it like its stolen.

and I am sure this will thread split soon - so this post can go with it, but honestly why would we think that rallying was better if we all drove evo rex? As for s2000 they only sound good cause they be breaking the rules. A datto or a 13B punching out 110 db sounds pretty spec as well.

Originally Posted by Matt Dyne

but I think one of the image issues we have to grapple with is why is rallying all about 40 year old cars?

Why shouldnt it be about any car anyone wants to use - particularly at club level?

[Ric Cary]

Originally Posted by Matt Dyne

PS...As an aside...a topic that has been done to death (so split the thread or delete this bit) was Claude Murray's comment in today's paper claiming how good rallying is that a 40 year old car can win an event. Not taking anything away from Claude, a win is a win, but I think one of the image issues we have to grapple with is why is rallying all about 40 year old cars?

conversely Matt doesn't that give out a message that you can be competitive in anything even an old ****box $500.00 Dato....................... after you spend 20 or 30k on it

[Hasbeen]

What is better than a fortie year old car winning doesnt say much for the guys driving the 4wd turbo cars or is it just that real rallying is about consitant stage times and being able to finish the event with minimal service and not being able or have to rebuild it every day well done to the winners and organiser's sounds like it was a great event and no one had to pay for TV or media coverage just a good event promoted properly.
Just proves what can be done and no one was payed to do results or com's or have comercial right's to the event just car club's doing what they do best well done.

[Spac]

Rallying is not all about 40 year old cars.

Sure there were two nearly 40 year old cars running at the front of the field, but it was a particularly long and rough club rally that suited the more durable cars. Not to mention the lack of real depth to the competition - hell, I was car #24 in the Volvo...
So that event was the exception, rather than the rule.

40 year old cars can still be competitive for a number of reasons:

1. They're simple and reliable (to finish first, first you must finish, etc).

2. The old Datto 1600s were an exceptional rally car from new. While it is clear that the AWD-T homologation specials have eclipsed them in terms of speed in the forest, it shouldn't be all that remarkable that they're still competitive among the 2WDs and older AWDs, given the way the over-all market has moved to cars that too big/too heavy/too FWD/not PRC eligible/not affordable to the average punter.

3. 40 years old = 40 years of development.... Some bloke in a shed in west Belconnen can now build cylinder heads that poop on the once worshipped FIA heads....

4. The rules are more relaxed for old 2WD NA cars.

5. The worthwhile AWD-Ts are generally quite fragile even when well prepared on healthy real-world budgets (ref point #1). Look at how much trouble Pete E, Karl W, Mawk, etc have had in getting their cars to last a whole rally, despite all of them really making a good effort to build/maintain their cars right.


Really, the majority of the "problem" is that the moderate cost cars that most manufacturers are serving up, are getting further and further away from what makes a good blind-event rally car.
Everything is getting bigger and heavier and more fragile.
The rare (partial) exceptions like RX-7s and 200SXes have additonal problems like poor visibility and are relatively expensive...

The fix to this problem should not compromise our sport.

The only thing that is realistically able to be fixed by 'rallying' is #4. I reckon that all NA 2WD cars should be granted the same freedoms as their pre-1986 brethren.
This should encourage people into newer cars, without rendering the existing fleet of old 2WDs uncompetitive overnight.

[Nighto]

Originally Posted by Spac

Rallying is not all about 40 year old cars.


40 year old cars can still be competitive for a number of reasons:

1. They're simple and reliable (to finish first, first you must finish, etc).

The fix to this problem should not compromise our sport.

The only thing that is realistically able to be fixed by 'rallying' is #4. I reckon that all NA 2WD cars should be granted the same freedoms as their pre-1986 brethren.
This should encourage people into newer cars, without rendering the existing fleet of old 2WDs uncompetitive overnight.

I tend to agree well said Spac

Nighto Old 2WD punter........

[Kate]

Surely it resembles the roundy F V's H battle. ie if there is no battle wheres the a) fun for the crews and b) fun for the specatators?

Isn't healthy rallying a mix of the old and the new?? and a mix of which cars win it?? And so a 30 year old datto won...is that not a testament to not only the car but to the driver and co-driver??

Its the whole package that wins a rally kids, the car and the crew....

[global]

Agree with point 4 - and looky some one has already written the rules.

Cars under 8 years old, max 2500cc, retain original drive config (front or rear) - add quads, 6 speed (Manufacture of which is free - if you can fit it!!)

Ask Matt Boorman about the noise they make. - Presto - Poor mans S2000 (in 2wd)

http://www.motorsport.org.nz/Pdf/07%...dule%202WD.pdf

Yes they are off the planet
If you like all things Honda

YouTube- Dave Strong (Civic) SS3 (Mohaka Coach) Hawkes Bay Rally 2007

YouTube- Dave Strong (Civic) SS3 (Mohaka Coach) Hawkes Bay Rally 2007

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=35fWB...20Rally%202007

YouTube- Dave Strong (Civic) SS8 (Bartons Line) Wairarapa Rally 2007

YouTube- Dave Strong (Civic) SS8 (Bartons Line) Wairarapa Rally 2007

Or Nissan
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=phJHF...20Rally%202007

Ok so the roads are alot smoother, but you need to ask why they have such a healthy NZRC and Club level - with out any works teams.

Answer -

a) Flexible Rules - Grp n for $$$$, Kiwi 2 for $$$, Fiesta Grp N for $$, Club Level (think mix and match) for $$$, $$, $ and .$ and encorage classics at $$$$ to .$

b) Less events - The entire portfolio of NZ events is about 20 or so events, inc 7 in the north, 6 in the south (equivilent to Aust State series) 6 National Events (Think ARC) and a handful (Less than 6 each island ) of club rally events. Each event is therefore better supported and offers more logistcal and Planning support.

c) Refer A and B above.

Mind you a quick scan of entry lists shows a drop in numbers from when I was there in 2002. Taranaki Rally for example had 130 entries or more in 02 and only 95 this year, Also Hawkes Bay on 02 had near 100 - and only 81 this year, so 15 -20% drop?? Possibly the sport is suffering.

[Stuart Walker]

My 2c worth is, consideration of the drop off of numbers in Rally (IMOI), and I suspect in most if not all motorsport can be attributed to the price of petrol, and increased awareness of global warming (as a result of recent international publicity), and the concerns.

Frankly, my thoughts are that we, at a club level need to promote and support events that "Everyday Joe" can compete in. Rallys are great for those with the money, set up, commitment, etc, etc.

But where does the new blood come from????

Good night all,

Cheers,

Linda

[johno]

Originally Posted by Matt Dyne

but I think one of the image issues we have to grapple with is why is rallying all about 40 year old cars?

What ? you cant be serious
I thought that there was already a joke thread on these forums

[Kaptainballistik]

Originally Posted by Stuart Walker

and I suspect in most if not all motorsport can be attributed to the price of petrol

Frankly, my thoughts are that we, at a club level need to promote and support events that "Everyday Joe" can compete in.

Linda

To run at AWABA I need 1 1/2 tanks of fuel ( Thats about 80 litres) to get there. Thats $100 for a motorkhana. I would probably use $20 of fuel at the event and entry is $30. Fuel is by far my biggest expense.

I realy need a tow car! Or a car without a 3 inch fuel leak....

Also, I get alot of questions on how to start, Someone really needs to make up a flier for CAMS to send out for people who want to Rally and play on dirt ( A starter pack if you will)

It would save me a heap of time at the shops when I take the Rx out for a drive ( I get hauled up EVERY time with questions!) Which is pretty much every weekend.

Im happy to put my 2 cents in, But my taste in graphics design is still at the Crayola level!

If anyone else thinks its a good idea, Ill start up a thread.

[hev]

Originally Posted by Kaptainballistik

Also, I get alot of questions on how to start, Someone really needs to make up a flier for CAMS to send out for people who want to Rally and play on dirt ( A starter pack if you will)

...

Im happy to put my 2 cents in, But my taste in graphics design is still at the Crayola level!

If anyone else thinks its a good idea, Ill start up a thread.

The flyer is already made, I think... Mick Gillett organised some of it (with the RAP? I think) and Hyundai paid/part paid for something to be put together last year which went to CAMS. The problem is not in the production of the brochure (very high quality, if possibly a little Excel Series centric for your purposes) the problem will always be in getting CAMS to promote motorsport, particularly of the dirt/rally variety...

Unless someone on here knows what happened with it, might be worthwhile a call to CAMS to find out whether they still have some in stock. If they've still got them, get some sent out to your car club, and carry some around in your car with you! Problem solved...

[Jme]

Obviously it was a great drive, and the car is very good. But it's not an 'old Dato', like the general public might think.

Claude's car is very highly modified from standard... much more so than most modern 4wd cars (with some exceptions of course) I don't really know the car, but I'd guess it's got a heap of power coming from at least a 1900cc motor, a close ratio gearbox, and LSD etc etc.

It's an enthusiasts car. Something that has been well-engineered and modified based on lessons learned over 40 years of rallying.

My arguement is that this isn't the type of car that we should be supporting as an 'entry level' in 2007. The Excel's are a much. much better option. They are less modified, more modern etc.

There should always be a place in the sport in club level events for the 'heavily modified' older cars, and I guess the VR4 I'm running next year is pretty much in the same boat now... just 4wd and turbo.

We do need to tread carefully as how we present to the public, and what type of class progression we support. The human interest story of the 'old' car taking down the 'modern machinery' has those underdog themes we all enjoy.

[jamar]

funny...

I inadvertently get involved in rallying based conversations of a frequent nature - be it at work - or in social situations - I am specifically referring to non- rally related people within this context..

The most common responses when I reply to the typical question of what breed my rally car is - is a sense of connection;
"180B - my folks had one of those";
"my first car"
"good old datto - can't kill them"


Personally I believe that there is a significant nostalgic connection - even in the "non-rally-savvy" public, into vehicles of this nature (or as Mr Moore (GOB) would refer to as "nominated steeds") - I am not specifically referring to datsun's - there is quite obviously a place for escort's; gemini's; commodores; the classic rotary and countless other vehicles that people relate to.

as and previously stated - Claude's vehicle is a prominent example of a extremely well engineered; maintained; prepared and presented vehicle - Bede's 180b is another example of a 30(ish) year old car - that in my opinion holds it own against 90% of any rally field - in presentation; performance and most importantly spectator satisfaction.

quite frankly I cannot see any reason for any level of concern.

J