A-B Timing 101 for Foreigners ...

[DaveTrees]

This thread is designed to give navs competing in the Alpine a brief rundown on A-B timing ... for those who aren't familiar with it.

A few things to start with :

1. This thread is purely designed to inform people, to help them enjoy the event more. I am not interested in debating the relative merits of A-A vs. A-B timing. I would request that any such posts get deleted by the moderators.

2. This thread has no regulatory value whatsoever. If I make an error or you misunderstand ... that's not my problem ! The relevant "authorities" are :
- the National Rally Code (particularly Section 4)
- the Supp Regs
- the Further Regs

3. Forget everythng you know about A-A timing ... it will make things easier to understand !

4. You will probably be surrounded by Victorian navs at every control - just ask them for assistance if you need it ! This is the HRA ... a sheepstation-free zone.

Basic Concepts

There are 3 types of Major Controls (Time Controls) :

• Start Controls - at the start of a Special Stage (finish of a Transport Section)
  
• Finish Controls - at the end of a Special Stage (start of a Transport Section)
  
• Transport Controls - between 2 consecutive Transport Sections or at the start or finish of a Division.

You are timed from Major Control to Major Control, and each Section will have a Target Time in which to complete it.

This is the fundamental difference from A-A ..... rather than each Section consisting of a Special Stage from a Time Control to a Stop Point, followed by a "Liaison" to the next Time Control .... with A-B timing each Special Stage and Transport Section is a Section in it's own right, with a Time Control at each end !


Control Procedures

Event Start / Division Start (Transport Control)

You will be given a Start Time for the section - normally 2 mins after the car in front, but in a couple of cases in the Alpine this will be 1 min (as detailed in the Further Regs).

The Road Book will specify the Target Time for the section - add this to your Start Time to determine when you are due at the next Control. eg. Start Time 10:00hrs + Target Time 15:00 mins = Due Time 10:15hrs

Off you go on the Transport Section.

Start Control (end Transport / start Stage)

When you reach the Control (probably a minute or so early, barring delays on the road) stop outside the Control Marker. You will be booked into Control at the earlier of :

- when the car passes the Control Marker, or
- you hand your Road Card to the official.

Best procedure is for the nav to walk into control, then at your due time (10:15 in this example) hand your Road Card to the offical & wave your driver in past the Board.

Sometimes the official will wave you in early & ask you to nominate the time you want, but I strongly suggest you don't do this if you are inexperienced..... just stick to the recipe.

Note - The car can't enter control in the preceding minute like you can under A-A, or you will be deemed as booking in early & be penalised accordingly.

If you book in late, there is no points penalty - only Late Running Time.

You will then be given a Start Time for the Special Stage - usually 2 mins after your arrival time & at least 2 mins after the car in front. In our example, this will be 10:17.

Get back in your car, buckle up, and move up to the start line. Note - there are no "Provisional Start" & "Actual Start" times like A-A. Don't expect 3 minutes to get your **** together !

5,4,3,2,1 - GLAF !!

Finish Control (end Stage / start Transport)

You will be timed as you pass the Flying Finish board. Pull up at the control table & hand your card to the official, who will :

- fill in your Finish Time (to the second) for the stage, and
- give you a Start Time for the next (transport) section.

This Start Time will normally be the 2nd whole minute after your finish time (eg. if you finished the Stage at 10:25:18, your Start Time for the next Transport will be 10:27 ..... as long as it is at least 2 minutes after the preceding car's Start Time for the Transport).

Calculate your Due Time at the next Control (Transport Finish/Stage Start) and off you go. As soon as you paperwork is complete you may leave - you don't have to wait for your Start Time to roll around.

.... and then the process repeats. Start Transport -> Finish Transport/Start Stage -> Finish Stage/Start Transport etc.

Simple really, is'nt it !!

A few key things to remember :

• Cars will always start a section (whether transport or Special Stage) in the same order as they booked in, unless they agree to swap positions.
  
  
• If you pass a car in a stage, they will start the next transport behind you - and hence the next stage as well, because their Due Time will be later than yours. This is another important difference from A-A timing.
  
  
• There are rules about catching up close to (but not passing) cars in-stage ...... refer to the Further regs for details.
  
  
• Each Special Stage also has a Target Time ("maximum time") for determining penalties ..... refer to the Further regs for details.
  
  
• Sometimes you will arrive at the end of a Transport and the car in front won't be there yet (they may have had a problem on the Transport). Don't book in, even if the officials wave you in. Wait until either the other car arrives or your Due Time rolls around - otherwise you are queue-jumping !
  
  
• Services (except at Division breaks) will generally be within a Transport section - make sure you allow enough time to get to the next Control in time without speeding !
  
  
• Keep track of your Late Running Time !! If for some reason you need to "cut & run" to stay within LRT, you can work out your Due Time at a later control to rejoin at by just adding up the Due Times for each intervening section (don't add 2 mins for each Control). If you book in early, you will take a penalty but also get some LRT back.

That's about it. Questions ??

[tortfeaser]

Thanks Dave. I didn't know about the 1 min before difference, so that's saved me a stack of earlys. Its a baffling system to be sure. I can't see how you don't end up with cars all over the shop. But there are advantages with dodgy seeding sorting itself out. I'm all about seeing if I like it.

Why, if you cut and run, don't you add the 2 mins in control time? Are there two physical controls at the start of a competitive? A TC and a start?

[DaveTrees]

Originally Posted by tortfeaser

I can't see how you don't end up with cars all over the shop.

I'm not sure what you mean by this ? There will always be a minimum 2 minute gap between cars re-established at every control (start & finish).

Running order will only change if you:
- pass a car in stage, or
- someone books in either late or early, or
- you swap positions at a control by agreement

Originally Posted by tortfeaser

Why, if you cut and run, don't you add the 2 mins in control time?

Because you just don't . The 2 mins in control is just "dead time", same as the 3 mins in control under A-A.

Originally Posted by tortfeaser

Are there two physical controls at the start of a competitive? A TC and a start?

Not as such. All the paperwork is done at the time control table, then the start line will be maybe 20m up the road with an official & clock to count you down. The start line isn't a "control".

[Bogan]

I only ever ran under A-B the once, and it was pretty easy, at least from my side of the car .

Seriously though, I hardly noticed a difference, mind you we didn't catch anyone or want to swap with anyone.

T.

[justinb]

Two tips that I think are worth noting.

(a) If you catch a car instage and you both finish at say the 1 second and the 59 second of the same minute.. you'll both be checking into the next control at the same time as you'll both have the same start time for that transport. so ask to put your car down first for the minute so you can leap frog the competitor and not penalities will be applied (as you're both on time)

(b) You'll find (as you do with a-a) that you will be early at controls, say 15 minutes... In 2005, the controllers were letting people nominate a checkin time. I.e You're check in is 10:15, but you arrive at 10:10. Therefore you nominate 10:15, and you start the next stage at 10:12

This caused a heap of confusion in 2005, I for one was sitting at a start control for 15 minutes (in the car) while we were seeing all these other cars that arrived after us leaving for the stage before us... They all nominated earlier times.. you could see the nav's running to the table!!!

what is supposed to happen is if a car expected for the 10:10 checkin doesn't arrive, then the controller can give that to another competitor who is early (minimise gaps) however, they were giving it to first in, best dressed.. certainly a race to the pub!!!!

I know that my driver wrote to the event organiser about the issue and I assume that things will run differently then 2005...

it is a fantastic event and would give anything to be there. have fun all!!!

[Graham Wallis]

Originally Posted by justinb

Two tips that I think are worth noting.

(a) If you catch a car instage and you both finish at say the 1 second and the 59 second of the same minute.. you'll both be checking into the next control at the same time as you'll both have the same start time for that transport. so ask to put your car down first for the minute so you can leap frog the competitor and not penalities will be applied (as you're both on time)

(b) You'll find (as you do with a-a) that you will be early at controls, say 15 minutes... In 2005, the controllers were letting people nominate a checkin time. I.e You're check in is 10:15, but you arrive at 10:10. Therefore you nominate 10:15, and you start the next stage at 10:12

This caused a heap of confusion in 2005, I for one was sitting at a start control for 15 minutes (in the car) while we were seeing all these other cars that arrived after us leaving for the stage before us... They all nominated earlier times.. you could see the nav's running to the table!!!

what is supposed to happen is if a car expected for the 10:10 checkin doesn't arrive, then the controller can give that to another competitor who is early (minimise gaps) however, they were giving it to first in, best dressed.. certainly a race to the pub!!!!

I know that my driver wrote to the event organiser about the issue and I assume that things will run differently then 2005...

it is a fantastic event and would give anything to be there. have fun all!!!

If two cars arrive together then the control official will space the two out times by 2 minutes.
Both cars then leave near enough at the same time but are required to book in 2 minutes apart at the end of the transport.
A-B timing does mean the event will tend to fall behind time but has the big advantage of being able to pass slower cars.
Graham

[DaveTrees]

Originally Posted by justinb

You're check in is 10:15, but you arrive at 10:10. Therefore you nominate 10:15, and you start the next stage at 10:12

That was purely incorrect procedure on the part of the officials.

Under no circumstances can you start a stage at a time earlier than your due arrival time.

Sometimes, to close up gaps, the officials may wave you in early & get you to nominate your due time - and maybe ask you if you are happy to be in & out on the same minute - but NEVER accept a start time that is earlier than your due time !

Example :
- You are due at 10:15, but arrive at 10:10.
- Officials wave you in & ask you to nominate your time (10:15)
- They SHOULD NOT give you a start time earlier than 10:15, however.

You are also always entitled to 2 minutes "in control" (ie. 2 mins between your "in" & "out" times) if you want it. It's in the NRC, and the officials cannot insist on giving you less time than this in control. (You may voluntarily agree though, if you want - to help close up gaps.)

There will be some inexperienced officials out there .... so be cautious. You are under no compulsion to "book in early" even if the official invites you to do so.

If unsure, it's safer to just wait until your due time before entering control - you can't be "forced" to come in early & nominate, and no-one is entitled to book in ahead of you if your Due Time is earlier than theirs.

[DaveTrees]

Originally Posted by Graham Wallis

A-B timing does mean the event will tend to fall behind time

Actually it doesn't, provided the running schedule takes account of Late Time properly !

[razoo]

Originally Posted by DaveTrees

[B]

[*]Keep track of your Late Running Time !! If for some reason you need to "cut & run" to stay within LRT, you can work out your Due Time at a later control to rejoin at by just adding up the Due Times for each intervening section (don't add 2 mins for each Control). If you book in early, you will take a penalty but also get some LRT back.[/LIST]

Hmm if you skip a Special Stage what time do you allow for it to work out your due time?


Geoff

[DaveTrees]

Originally Posted by razoo

Hmm if you skip a Special Stage what time do you allow for it to work out your due time?

Geoff

You use the Target Time ("Maximum Time") specified for the stage.

[Miss]

Thanks very much Dave! Vote 1 Dave Trees to rewrite TBWB

Just to confirm.. if you skip a stage you get the time allowed... do you get any additional penalties?

[DaveTrees]

Originally Posted by Miss

Just to confirm.. if you skip a stage you get the time allowed... do you get any additional penalties?

That I am not 100% sure on .... check the Supp Regs.

Generally, if you miss a control you get classified in the results behind all those crews who visit all controls (regardless of your times).

You must visit 50% of the controls to be classed as a finisher.

[Andrei]

Originally Posted by DaveTrees

...and no-one is entitled to book in ahead of you if your Due Time is earlier than theirs.

And I guess the situation, where I am running out of late time and want to cut it down (even by mean of receiving the penalty for early booking) by jumping the queue, is an appropriate exception?

[Graham Wallis]

Originally Posted by DaveTrees

Actually it doesn't, provided the running schedule takes account of Late Time properly !

Granted, but slower people will run behind time which is not the case in A to A.
Graham

[A.R.G.]

For clarity, do I have this right? Imagine that the same rally is being discussed, and that the car under discussion starts at noon.:

A-A
From Start control: time card allows 10 minutes.
Arrival control, check in at 12:10. Start the stage at 12:12. Time card allows 26 minutes for section. You finish the stage in 14:05.45. Doesn't matter. You check in to the next stage start at 12:38.

A-B
From Start control: time card allows 10 minutes.
Arrival control, check in at 12:10. Start the stage at 12:12. Time card allows 20 minutes for stage. You finish the stage in 14:05.45. Time card allows 6 minutes for the transit. Drop back to the 14 (for the two minute interval), add that to the 12:12, and check in to the next control at 12:26.

Is this correct?

And follow up question: you get a flat, takes 23 minutes to finish the stage. When is check-in under the A-B system?