Engine Power Restrictions Needed Yes or No

[wbell]

Chasing HP can become a dog chasing its tail. Is there a need to limit what can be done to the engine in order to keep the cost reasonable and the competition close.

Now the FIA did one thing that leveled the HP race in the WRC and PRC, that was to introduce the Restrictor. There is not alot of difference between any of the engines because of this. The other thing was weight limitations of the cars.

I think it is F3 that runs a restrictor on NA engines

It could be something to look into. What ever rules apply they have to be simple and easily policed otherwise it all be come s too complicated and impossible to enforce. No one wants to go pulling heads off to measure Valves and bore size.

However restrictors could be done on choke size for webbers, multi t/body size on injection or air inlet for single body injection.

If someone there is good at maths you can work out say for a 2.2 lt engine how much air volume per minute is required for say 230bhp. Calculate the size of the restrictor to allow that amount of air flow and divide that by the number of throttle bodies. There must be a formula for this somwhere.

Restrictors are easy to seal and police, weight limitations requires scales which can be a pain in the arse but it is an effictive way of evening out the competition.

Anyone got any other ideas how to stop the free for all power race that will happen if we proceed down the AMSAG or ASSA rout.

How much BHP is enough to make the sport exciting and competative.

Interested to hear your comments.

Wayne Bell

[robert inall]

Totally (respectively) disagree. Why hold people back from freedom of power, just because the engine produces it does'nt mean the driver can utilise it. Most sensible people will build something they can handle.

If we limit power from those with deep pockets they will spend it somewhere else anyway such as better tyres,brakes or whatever.

Power sorts out the men from the boys, lets see more GRUNTERS.

PS. Wayne are you using the forum for clandestine market research for AASA? Hmm come on fess up

[Mark]

I don't think power restriction is necessary in a formula that is traction limited such as in 2WDs - which I think is what you're alluding to.

Mark

[wbell]

Originally Posted by Mark

I don't think power restriction is necessary in a formula that is traction limited such as in 2WDs - which I think is what you're alluding to.

Mark

I have always stated if you have 200 or 220 bhp it makes not alot of difference over a gravel stage. Traction is the limiting factor in 2WD.

The only difference in some cases is what you have to spend to get that extra 20 or 30hp from a similar engine.

I ran a 430+BHP Commodore a few times and during one event the disy went wacko and the thing was down to about 320bhp. No difference to stage time s just did not feel as snappy

[wbell]

Originally Posted by robert inall

PS. Wayne are you using the forum for clandestine market research for AASA? Hmm come on fess up

No is the short answer Robert. Although I must admit with the announcement from the ASSA recently it looks like it. In truth I did not even know who the ASSA were until a few days ago.

I am just trying to get a feeling of what people are looking for. With all this ASSA stuff one thing comes up often is about eligibility. Fitting big HP engines in to their cars and the cost of doing so. My general feeling that people spend too much on the engine and dont worry if the thing handles like a pig.

POWER will fix all attitude.

My origional Polls were to canvas the idea of a 2wd Championship on the east coast with 3 Alpine type events and one other shorter pacenoted event. I dont think ASSA will deliver that either at this stage. One thing though if the ASSA get up and running then it is up to us the competitors to determain what we are looking for from rallying and to put that point to them early, not to wait till they dictate the rules and then bitch about it.

Cheers
Wayne

[Marty]

I'd be interested to hear Steve Willett's thoughts (YRALLY).

He's just built a high HP motor and was breaking traction in every gear at the Alpine. I think Steve said he used full throttle only a handful of times during the event. (I could be wrong... Steve???)

Wayne, (and others) what is your experience in regards to the maximum "useable" HP? How much is enough - and anything about that is unuseable? (I drive a Camira that wouldn't pull the skin off a custard.... so I don't know about high HP issues)

[Swill]

I will start off by saying I know nothing about 4wds and I don't really care. But for 2wd the more HP you have the more fun they are to drive. I rallied cars that have 50, 90 and 270kw the wheels. Its true I didnt use full throttle more than a couple of times all Alpine, but it sure was fun trying. Traction is an all equalling force in 2wd, whether its 100hp or 500hp, restrictions to HP will raise the $$$ level to a new level and should not be encourged. If you want to play on a level restricted playing field, buy an Excel, go race the ARC or build a Gemini

[wbell]

Originally Posted by Marty

I'd be interested to hear Steve Willett's thoughts (YRALLY).
Wayne, (and others) what is your experience in regards to the maximum "useable" HP? How much is enough - and anything about that is unuseable? (I drive a Camira that wouldn't pull the skin off a custard.... so I don't know about high HP issues)

Marty It depends on the surface you are trying go get the power down to. Many years ago 220 was max for a Front wheel drive (Turbo Saab). Although this is now around 245 with the modern differential / transmission and suspension. The last of the fuel injected Escort BDA had something like 270 but needed big revs and was not that useable from what I have been told.

I did a race on a dirt circuit in Korea some time ago. The circuit was like a normal race circuit but dirt. I had a Hyundai Coupe with 240hp and started from the back of the grid. There were 3 other cars with similar HP to me all Front wheel drive. Off the start I could not pass anything even the cars with 160hp were accelerating as fast as I could. Note there were 25 cars in this race and I was last into the first corner. As it turned out there was a huge pile up in that corner and being last I managed to avoid the carnage.

My view is around 230 is nice. Enough to put a smile on your dial. Even then you cant use it all the time but you can steer with throttle and that is fun.

[GT4RALLY]

From the middle of the clubman field at CAMS events the reality of the restrictor in my car is I spend loads of money getting the car back to factory HP. This makes no sense to me at all.

The attraction for me to AMSAG events is in part due to the lack of these non-logical technical restrictions.

Over-regulation is killing off CAMS club level rallying. Trying to introduce this same mentality to the alternative providers will just end up in the same decline in competitor numbers.

RT

[Spac]

For 2WDs on gravel, power is not an issue for all of the reasons that have already been stated.

For AWDs, I'm strongly in favour of restrictors. I know the arguments against them, but until someone writes a sensible, enforceable rule that somehow limits power (and top speed) by other means, then I'm a fan of restrictors.
Remember that the FIA feels it is necessary for the best drivers in the world, using the best safety gear in the world, with the best emergency support, to have restrictors - why do we think that we know better?

I'd consider supporting 36mm restrictors for cars running true pump fuel (a la the BP Challenge) if the true pump fuel bit could be enforced.

(I haven't voted because my answer to the poll depends on whether we're talking about 2WDs or AWDs).

[wbell]

Originally Posted by YRALLY

I will start off by saying I know nothing about 4wds and I don't really care. But for 2wd the more HP you have the more fun they are to drive. I rallied cars that have 50, 90 and 270kw the wheels. Its true I didnt use full throttle more than a couple of times all Alpine, but it sure was fun trying. Traction is an all equalling force in 2wd, whether its 100hp or 500hp, restrictions to HP will raise the $$$ level to a new level and should not be encourged. If you want to play on a level restricted playing field, buy an Excel, go race the ARC or build a Gemini

Steve 270 Kw at the wheels = 360BHP or (over 400hp at the flywheel) I want to take my Gemini to that Dyno.

"restrictions to HP will raise the $$$ level to a new level "

I dont understand your thoughts behind that. The only reason for reducing power would be to reduce cost. I was building a 235 hp Hyundai Engine for around $14,000. In the UK they were building the same thing at a cost of $25,000. and were calaiming 245bhp. I seen the invoices form the engine builder. Maybe that is why Hyundai pulled out of Rallying in the end.

Cheers
Wayne

[Spac]

Swill's HP figures are close enough. It's a serious engine, built by someone who knows what they're doing.... Have a look at the Alpine vid.
In Australian-speak, the rule of thumb is that you double rear wheel kilowatts to get flywheel HP... and even that figure isn't out of the question for Swill's motor.

In my eyes, PRC is not a parity formula.
AWD-Ts have restrictors to stop people killing themselves, not to attempt to create parity.

[wbell]

Originally Posted by Spac

Swill's HP figures are close enough. It's a serious engine, built by someone who knows what they're doing.... Have a look at the Alpine vid.
In Australian-speak, the rule of thumb is that you double rear wheel kilowatts to get flywheel HP... and even that figure isn't out of the question for Swill's motor.

In my eyes, PRC is not a parity formula.
AWD-Ts have restrictors to stop people killing themselves, not to attempt to create parity.

think I will leave the Gemini in the shead. That is a serious engine. I changed the $ value for the UK engine $50,000 was for the WRC Engine. Same engine just turboed.

The restrictors in the AWD were, as you say primary for safety, so the days of Group B 600+BHP fantastic plastic cars could not happen in group A

[tortfeaser]

Hp restrictions (restrictors, rev limits, minimum component weights, max valve sizes, whatever) cost more 'cos you spend the stupid dollars trying to get around them.

If traction effectively limits Hp usefulness then a power restriction does nothing more than add cost with no benefit.

[Barney]

OK I am gonna get flamed for this one but why regulate the horsepower rather than the drivers. If some lunatic is outdriving his ability in a gravel rally he will have a big one whether it be in an 80hp clubbie or a 350hp 4wd turbo. Would it be better to have a tiered licence system restricting newcomers to lower hp mods and when they know their craft, they can move up?

I find it ridiculous that a young richie rich can get mum and dad to buy them a $50K 4wd rocket and lo and behold they dnf for 20 club/state rounds until the car is stuffed. Much better that learn in mod restricted cars until they know when to hold 'em, know when to fold 'em.

Flame on