State/Clubman Championships and Event Viability (was: Latest NSWRAP DRAFT Minutes)

[Ric Cary]

To my way of thinking,combining status of events is about critical mass, currently putting on SC event for 20-30 cars is commercial suicide and almost the same for a clubman round.It also does not provide much of a spectacle for the councils in the areas we go to which in turn makes it harder to get promotion etc happening.
If an event comes to town with 20 cars its an annoyance if it comes with 100 cars and all the associated crews and families etc it becomes a major economic boost for the area and if publicised well and draws another couple of hundred + spectators well thats just icing on the cake. I can't speak for other areas but I know that Lithgow Council and lots of the major businesses in the area are right behind our event and thats solely because of the commercial benefits we bring to town.
So how do we get back to events with decent sized fields in the current climate.
Limit the number of events so that those who are competeing have more time to prepare ,repair and refill the budget.
Make more noise about the sport so that drift etc are not percieved as the best or easiest to start out in.
Combine all the current series to maximise the returns to the host areas ( and if I had my way we'd make sure that if you had any car that complied with schedule R yes even amsag/aasa whatever you could at least have a run at any event) making sure of course that all seres competitors in the event recieve due recognition at each event so nobody feels like a stocking stuffer.
limiting competitive distance is a crock once you are there the money is spent the extra fuel or whatever just doesn't even rate a mention.which is the same for the organisers everything is paid for radios, FIV, etc it makes not 1%difference apart from perhaps needing more volunteers

Of course this is just my totally biased view and really WTF would I know

[Mike Cherry]

Absolutely. In fact your reference to combing CAMS, AASA & AMSAG licences & eligibilty would only be a bonus for the sport, it may prove to be its salvation.

Don't know about being a crock, to do an extra 50k an additional 2 drums of fuel & tyres (or a shagged set at the end) could be a deterrant to some.
As far as Organisers costs are concerned, if, for instance, you had to run the Rally of Lithgow in Sunny Corner as well, there would be a reasonable increase in your costs. So, other circumstances, ie: geography, come into play.

I think you are being a bit harsh on yourself.

[Ric Cary]

Originally Posted by Mike Cherry

Don't know about being a crock, to do an extra 50k an additional 2 drums of fuel & tyres (or a shagged set at the end) could be a deterrant to some.

yeah $80 worth of fuel and a set of tyres that aren't anymore fresh than the set you started on .....or are the set you started on is really going to make a difference after the $2000 you have already spent on entry,accomodation,towing fuel, food .......and of course beer

Originally Posted by Mike Cherry

As far as Organisers costs are concerned, if, for instance, you had to run the Rally of Lithgow in Sunny Corner as well, there would be a reasonable increase in your costs. So, other circumstances, ie: geography, come into play.

Mike thats silly, you know as well as I do once you set your course your costs are set how many ks you use doesn't effect that at all take Myall at the weekend or even Forster go round once,twice or three times makes no difference except to how the roads hold up and how badly you burn out your officials, with the current centralised service trend everything is by necessity a loop

[daewoo]

I am sure that event costs have been detailed here before. The only time that more kms increase the cost of the event to the organiser is if you have to pay fees to two different shires or because the event stretches out to 2 days;

Shire fee fixed,
Forestry fee fixed,
Radio hire fixed,
Survey costs fixed,
Road book costs fixed,
Officials accommodation fixed,

If you need to use roads twice or more to get to the higher Km figure you will risk having to pay for road damage.

As a competitor, I got the poopey pants about using the same stage 4 times...

I know at Narooma, our break even is in the 50 competitors area... that means if we get to 60, we make about $2000. That is what I charge for one day of an engineer... about 10% on a $21,000 risk... not a great return on investment...

I can't see anyone complaining about longer events unless you get to Australian Safari proportions... although a lot of people complained about my 42Km stage at Narooma (I wanted to push it up to 50Km just to please them)...

By the time you have spent a number of thousand dollars to be there. I don't think an extra $100 in fuel, and $100 worth of tyre wear is going to worry too many people...

[Damo]

Originally Posted by Ric Cary

yeah $80 worth of fuel and a set of tyres that aren't anymore fresh than the set you started on .....or are the set you started on is really going to make a difference after the $2000 you have already spent on entry,accomodation,towing fuel, food .......and of course beer

Originally Posted by daewoo

By the time you have spent a number of thousand dollars to be there. I don't think an extra $100 in fuel, and $100 worth of tyre wear is going to worry too many people...

This is exactly the reason that i'll be doing the Meander at Batemans Bay, and not the full event. It may not be an issue for the front running teams, but dont forget that an extra $200-$300 per event is a very BIG consideration for many crews down the back end..... Lets not go down the ARC route of making decisions based on the first few cars on the road!

[Ric Cary]

Originally Posted by Damo

This is exactly the reason that I'll be doing the Meander at Batemans Bay, and not the full event. It may not be an issue for the front running teams, but don't forget that an extra $200-$300 per event is a very BIG consideration for many crews down the back end..... Lets not go down the ARC route of making decisions based on the first few cars on the road!

Damo no one is suggesting we make decisions based on the first few cars,the simple facts are that unless we combine events we will soon end up with no events because it will not be financially viable for anybody,then there will be no meander or cheaper entries as some events provide. If organisers could be sure of large fields they inturn could possibly reduce entry fees and thats got to be a good thing for everybody doesn't it.what you have to remember is that the fixed costs of an event excepting permit fees are exactly the same for 1 car as 1000 cars

[Mike Cherry]

Which brings us back to - why did 2 drivers that had scored points in the SC chose to do the Myall Lakes? & why did only 11 of the 56 that had scored points in the SC thus far compete in the Myall Stages?
Please don't get me wrong, this is not a dig at anyone, just seeking open debate searching for answers from the people that can give them.
The simple truth is that (particularly at the moment), many competitors simply don't have the readies to compete.
That extra $80 of fuel could be just the straw that breaks the camels back, & still having a decent set of tyres might just get someone into the next event.
Could it be that the CS has a good future simply because it doesn't come with the baggage of a State event?
While I totally agree with the critical mass theory, why potentially destroy a viable series for the sake of one that is becoming unviable?
We might just be throwing the baby out with the bathwater here.

[daewoo]

Originally Posted by daewoo

By the time you have spent a number of thousand dollars to be there. I don't think an extra $100 in fuel, and $100 worth of tyre wear is going to worry too many people...

I just want to qualify that I don't want to be seen as supporting higher distances justifying higher entry fees... entry fees are well and truly high enough...

cheers,
Daewoo

[Damo]

Do we really have enough regular competitors in NSW to gaurantee big fields if events are consolidated as suggested?

If a marquee event like the Alpine can only get 80 odd competitors from across various states, will we seriously get the 90/100 competitors from within NSW only turning up?

[Ric Cary]

Originally Posted by Damo

Do we really have enough regular competitors in NSW to gaurantee big fields if events are consolidated as suggested?
If a marquee event like the Alpine can only get 80 odd competitors from across various states, will we seriously get the 90/100 competitors from within NSW only turning up?

Perhaps not 100 but certainly more than 30, I would hope that a good event would be able to get 70+ being 30 SC and 40 or so clubman, and then there is the PCD act series that brings another few out to play

[Miss]

Originally Posted by Damo

Do we really have enough regular competitors in NSW to gaurantee big fields if events are consolidated as suggested?

If a marquee event like the Alpine can only get 80 odd competitors from across various states, will we seriously get the 90/100 competitors from within NSW only turning up?

Errr... 2007 Alpine got over 100, and a heap missed out.

Personally I think more MiniDulla/Blue Range/Tomerong (Schedule R) style events on the calendar will bring out the cars that haven't seen the light of day for years because paying for the licence/club membership isn't viable if you're only running one even a year.

Speaking from experience, these style events are piss easy to organise (once you've done them once) and everyone has an absolute blast. Go the Good Kharma

JMHO though

[daewoo]

Originally Posted by Miss

Personally I think more MiniDulla/Blue Range/Tomerong (Schedule R) style events on the calendar will bring out the cars that haven't seen the light of day for years

10 years ago, 70 or 80 car fields for club level (Gemini, & Novice combined) were pretty normal. Full fields were a real risk for slow enterers...

Entry fees have almost tripled, suitable cars are more expensive, costs of building a reasonable and compliant car are much higher, and other outlets like drifting are providing an easier outlet for far less money...

Give me the choice between a safe $100 event, and an over-regulated $300 event and I know what us financially constrained people would choose...

How is AMSAG doing relative to CAMS events???

Cheers,
Daewoo

[Mike Cherry]

Many, many years ago rallies referred to as "Single Venue" events were quite popular & successful. They were run along the lines of Tomerong, the single referring to being in just 1 forest with the start & finish etc in the one location.
Our most popular event was in Coopernook SF & based at Coopernook Forest Park.
If it evolves that Clubman & State are combined, then this type of event could fill a vital roll as introductory style events.

[Jme]

Take Rally of Lithgow for example... Ric threatened to pull the event in the week leading up to it cause he didn't have enough entries. A few weeks earlier the NDDC Clubman Rally at Black Springs ran for the 24th time and had 30 plus entries.

If he gets rid of the NDDC event and takes the clubman part of it (in the events 25th anniversary year) then his rally will be financial.

I guess he can hurt the AMSAG event by taking up all the available dates with forestry as well... the windows out there are getting smaller, and that will get him 1 or 2 more entries.

The thing is... it's the STATE event which has the problem. The Lithgow Rally in that format, at that time of year will NEVER attract a decent field. There are just too many reasons for people not to go, and you will only attract the State series diehards of which there are few. The ANSWER (if you are talking entries) is to tag the State Round onto the NDDC event. It's been a State Round before, it generally averages 35-40 entries and has existed for 24 years - the event next door had competitors wondering if it were even going to run the Tuesday before the event.

But lets not kid ourselves... this is all about getting Lithgow a decent field so Ric can beat his chest.

The fact the Lithgow almost didn't run this year, and the the director threatened to pull it should see some big questions asked before it is given state status. You guys will rip into Coffs Harbour but leave Lithgow alone simply cause of the Cary factor, He is big, loud and most of the NSWRP are just too piss-weak to speak against him.

I know Myall wasn't perfect, but hey- the event was always running- there were no threats that we need officials or entries or it's not happening. The same people are behind Oberon, and the same group of sponsors. What's the bet the NSWRP try to shaft our clubman event at the hands of Cary and Ewing etal?

This is all just a set up. The world revolves around Lithgow and Ric.

[Ric Cary]

Originally Posted by Jme

Take Rally of Lithgow for example... Ric threatened to pull the event in the week leading up to it cause he didn't have enough entries. A few weeks earlier the NDDC Clubman Rally at Black Springs ran for the 24th time and had 30 plus entries.

If he gets rid of the NDDC event and takes the clubman part of it (in the events 25th anniversary year) then his rally will be financial.

I guess he can hurt the AMSAG event by taking up all the available dates with forestry as well... the windows out there are getting smaller, and that will get him 1 or 2 more entries.

The thing is... it's the STATE event which has the problem. The Lithgow Rally in that format, at that time of year will NEVER attract a decent field. There are just too many reasons for people not to go, and you will only attract the State series diehards of which there are few. The ANSWER (if you are talking entries) is to tag the State Round onto the NDDC event. It's been a State Round before, it generally averages 35-40 entries and has existed for 24 years - the event next door had competitors wondering if it were even going to run the Tuesday before the event.

But lets not kid ourselves... this is all about getting Lithgow a decent field so Ric can beat his chest.

The fact the Lithgow almost didn't run this year, and the the director threatened to pull it should see some big questions asked before it is given state status. You guys will rip into Coffs Harbour but leave Lithgow alone simply cause of the Cary factor, He is big, loud and most of the NSWRP are just too piss-weak to speak against him.

I know Myall wasn't perfect, but hey- the event was always running- there were no threats that we need officials or entries or it's not happening. The same people are behind Oberon, and the same group of sponsors. What's the bet the NSWRP try to shaft our clubman event at the hands of Cary and Ewing etal?

This is all just a set up. The world revolves around Lithgow and Ric.

Gee JME thats all really interesting
The world revolves around me and lithgow ???
I have all the dates????
I'm taking the clubman round ???
Its all about Lithgow getting a decent field???
The NSWRAP won't stand up to me ???? about what ???
Our event wasn't financial ???? news to me !!!



The paranoids have got ya JME you need better medication.....seriously better!!!
or conversely you just have no idea and like flapping ya gums, tell ya what why don't you join the panel and direct an event or two and guide us all out of the wasteland the sport is rapidly falling into I'll back you......seriously I will