CAMS NSW Minutes Summary

[Mathew Boorman]

A simple cut and paste of the various minutes that relate to Rally.
Note there is BIG HOLES in the minutes, except the State Exec.

Really just for the benefit of readers of this thread http://www.bmsc.com.au/forums/austra...ost191823.html

Originally Posted by State Exec 18th Jan

Rally Advisory Stephen Horobin (Panel Chairman)
No Panel Minutes received. Panel Chairman reported:
The following people are put forward for consideration as members of the 2008 Rally Advisory Panel: Peter Ewing (Panel Vice Chairman), Kam Baker, Ric Cary, Jim Gleeson, Graham Humphreys, Richard Opie, Michael South, Matt Sosimenko and Tony Sullens.

MOVED C Bethwaite/A Dudok that the above people so named be appointed as members of the NSW Rally Advisory Panel for 2008.

Originally Posted by CAMS NSW Rally Panel 1st February 2008

5. Election of Panel Officials

The following officials were elected as per the NSW Rally Panel Standing Orders:
Panel Vice Chairman: Peter Ewing
Panel Secretary: Jim Gleeson
State Rally Championship Pointscorer: Matt Sosimenko
State Rsllysprint Pointscorer: Michael South
Clubman Rally Championship Pointscorer: TBC
Excel Series Pointscorer: TBC
Rally and Rallysprint Checker Coordinator: Graham Humphreys
Touring Road Event Checker Coordinator: Stephen Horobin
Driver Grader: Graham Humphreys
Seeding List Coordinator: TBC
Rally Document Authoriser: Graham Humphreys
Rallysprint Document Authoriser: Peter Ewing
Touring Road Event Document Authoriser: Stephen Horobin
Touring Assembly Document Reviewer: Stephen Horobin
CAMS Clock Custodian and Sealing Kit: Kam Baker

8. Business arising from 2007 CAMS NSW Rally Panel

(Refer to 21st September 2007 minutes for detailed actions)

a. Rally Registration update

Chairperson and Acting NSW State Manager discussed issue. In the hands of QBE Insurance and CAMS Legal Departments to be resolved by end of April 2008

Action Item:

NSWRAP and CAMS NSW to issue a joint media release to inform the rally community where Rally Registration in NSW is at.

b. NSW Forests Memorandum of Understanding update

No new news to report on this. However, there were issues reported from the Western Region in the increase in the bond to $10,000.

Action Item:

Graham Humphreys to document issues on the increase in bond to Chairperson ASAP to follow up immediately with Forests NSW.

Originally Posted by State Exec 16th February 2008.

03.7 Rally Advisory Panel – Stephen Horobin (Panel Chairman)

Panel Minutes from meeting 1st February received.

Amendments to the current Excel series to bring the State series in line with other states

Rally Registration is still being discussed with relevant authorities with some progress being made.

A memorandum of understanding with Sate Forestry Services regarding Bonds for the use of Forestry roads.

Aust Rally Championship have requested that the NSW Championship round not be attached to the National round for NSW.

Rally clocks and their storage were discussed and a Motion was noted as follows:


SE -02-0208-04: MOVED J Buckley/ G Arnold That the Rally clocks be held at the State Office and picked up (couriered to events) and returned to the State Office on completion of the event. CARRIED: 9/0/0

There will be an ACROM forum held on Friday March 7th at the Blacktown Workers Function Centre 55 Campbell Street Blacktown Commencing at 8.00pm. All interested parties are invited to attend.

Panel Chairman to discuss with State manager a satisfactory method of storage and transport of the clocks.

Originally Posted by State Exec Wednesday March 12, 2008

No Panel Minutes presented for acceptance. Written report received and presented by the Executive Chairman and included the following items:

 Calendar Changes – the following event organisers have requested date changes:
o Rally of the Hastings (NSW Rally Championship Round) – rescheduled from March 15 to July 5, 2008

o Cancellation of Kempsey Rally (NSW Clubman Rally Series) scheduled for May 17, 2008.

o Rally of the Manning Valley rescheduled from April 5 to August 23 upgraded to NSW Clubman Rally Series Round as replacement for cancelled Kempsey Rally.

SE-02-0308-08 MOVED A Dudoc/C Bethwaite that the rally date changes, as listed above be approved.
CARRIED 10/0/0

 NSW Forests MOU – scheduled meet that State Manager was to attend has been put back to allow for further discussions with broader forestry management.

 Rally Clocks and problems with same.

 ARCom Rally Forum. Attendance was good but would have liked a wider attendance.


05.5 NSW State Chairman Neil Turner reported on:

 ARCom Forum – Many of the problems being experienced with CAMS at this time were put forward but disappointing that no-one in attendance put forward any suggestions on how theses problems could be addressed.

o There was no submissions put forward by the Rally Advisory.

Originally Posted by State Exec Saturday April 12, 2008

Rally Advisory Panel – Steve Horobin (Chairman) not in attendance, competing at Black Springs.

04.7

No Panel Representative in attendance and Panel Minutes for Meeting March 27, 2008 presented for acceptance. Discussion was undertaken on the following:

 Concern expressed that a Club had moved an event from under CAMS and over to AASA.

o Chairman and Acting State Manager have discussed this and matter has been forwarded to the CAMS CEO.

o Michael Masi is to report back to the State Executive regarding this matter.

o There is an issue with AASA/CAMS permits since AASA does not have the cover that CAMS does.

o There is a need for communication to organisers explaining excess and insurance policies etc.

08.2 Rally Event Checkers for NSW. This item was presented by the Chairman on behalf of the Rally Advisory Panel.

 Comprehensive listing of proposed Rally Event Checkers from across NSW provided and tabled for acceptance.

Originally Posted by State Exec Friday May 16, 2008

02-0408-SE- 08.2 – Rally Event Checkers for NSW

SE-02-0508-06 RESOLVED that the Rally Panel Chairman be requested to provide the State Executive with a copy of the names for all Rally Event Checkers for information purposes.

02-0408-SE-09.1 – State Forestry Meeting – State Manager reported that these have actually been telephone meetings and its has been resolved that CAMS have paid a bond to Forestry that is for the cover of rally events in NSW run by CAMS only. Any other organisation must provide their own bond coverage.

04.7 Rally Advisory Panel – Steve Horobin (Chairman) not in attendance.

o No Panel Representative in attendance and no Panel Minutes presented for acceptance.

02-0508-SE-08 GENERAL BUSINESS AS ADVISED:

08.1 Rally of Hastings Replacement.
• This item was dealt with prior to this meeting via e-mail.

Originally Posted by State Exec June 13, 2008

04.7 Rally Advisory Panel- Fro Horobin (Panel Chairman)

No Panel Minutes presented for acceptance. The following items were discussed

• NSW/ARC round undergoing discussions on associated matters

• Rally Panel is recommending the introduction of a Rally Sprint Licence.

• Introduction rally sprints are being considered, but currently no format exists, ARCOM approval is being sought to run with a level 2 licence requirement only.

• NSW Rally calendar for 2009 is being discussed.

• 2008 Championship competitor numbers are down.

• On going discussions with RTA/Forestry. Forestry Bonds now in CAMS name for use by CAMS events only, a copy of the CAMS permit will be provided to Forestry.

Originally Posted by State Exec Saturday July 19, 2008

02-0408-SE- 08.2 Rally Event Checkers List for NSW – Waiting list from Rally Advisory Panel.

Rally Advisory Panel – Steve Horobin (Chairman not in attendance).

04.7

No Panel Representative in attendance and Panel Minutes of meetings March 7, March 27, April 18, May 30 and June 26 2008 presented for acceptance.

 The State Executive expressed concern that minutes for March, April and May have taken so long to be submitted for acceptance.

 Further concern was raised that theses minutes contained items that have not yet been approved by the State Executive but have been put up on the Rally Panels Web Site.

 It was also viewed with concern the negative criticism of ARCom that was included and published within the minutes, particularly with the running of the State Championship round as part of the ARC round in Coffs Harbour in November. It is suggested that the RAP should be taking all necessary steps to ensure this round is successful and well supported. It should be noted that the State Executive does not support the views of the NSW Rally Advisory Panel in its criticism of ARCom.

SE-02-0708-04 MOVED G Emerton/A Dudok that the Rally Advisory Panel be requested to remove the Panel Minutes for March 7, March 27, April 18, May 30 and June 26 2008 from the Rally Panel Web site until they have been ratified by the State Executive. CARRIED 10/0/0

Originally Posted by State Exec Friday August 15, 2008

02-0408-SE- 08.2 Rally Event Checkers List for NSW – Still not received back from Rally Advisory Panel.
SE-02-0708-04 Rally Advisory Panel Web Site – It was reported that a meeting has been held with with the chairman of the Rally Advisory Panel in Canberra on Thursday 14 August and it has been recommended that a) all relevant minutes are to be withdrawn and restructured with the assistance of the State Executive Minutes Secretary and b) that State Executive Member Adrian Dudok become a non-voting member of the Rally Panel to provide assistance on procedures.

SE-02-0808-04 MOVED C Bethwaite/A Pursey that the State Executive endorse the recommendations that
have been put forward by the acting State Manager. CARRIED 8/0/0 – CLOSE


04.7 Rally Advisory Panel – Steve Horobin (Chairman not in attendance).

No Panel Representative in attendance and no Panel Minutes of meetings presented for acceptance.

See item in Business arising on Rally Advisory Panel Meeting.

5.5 NSW State Chairman Neil Turner:

Attended a meeting in Canberra last night to discuss the NSW Rally Advisory Panel problems with Panel Chairman. This meeting also included Andrew Papadopoulos and was productive in resolving current problems.

Originally Posted by State Exec Thursday September 18, 2008B

02-0408-SE- 08.2 Rally Event Checkers List for NSW – Still not received back from Rally Advisory Panel.
Stewards Advisory Panel – Mick Nicholls (Panel Representative)

04.2

Panel Minutes of meetings August 12 and September 9, 2008 presented for acceptance. No items were submitted for consideration of State Executive but the following item from Rally Panel Minutes was reported on

• PRC – PCYC Rally Issues.

o Issues raised have been investigated by the Panel and it has been found that some comments were incorrect.

o There are two clauses in National Rally Code that could have been considered, not 12 as reported:

NRC – 6.9 (ii) When a special stage has been interrupted for any reason the Stewards will allocate each crew a time which they consider is the fairest.

NRC – 6.9 (vi) A special stage may be deleted, without prejudice to the right of protest, if disproportionately unequal conditions have been experienced by different competitors.

• In this case NRC – 6.9 (vi) was applied as the Stewards were advised by the Clerk of Course, who was fully across what had transpired, because the 1st cars had started the stage before set up had been completed and the staged “Greened” and one of the early cars had crashed
out with the requirement of the stage being stopped and medical recovery was required thus NRC – 6.9 (vi) was applied and brought into force.

• It is not the roll of the Stewards to interfere with the conduct of the event unless it is a matter of “safety” or “force majeure” or if asked to by the Clerk of Course.

• The competitors who submitted the complaint had the right to protest this decision and chose not to do so and so the decision of the Clerk of Course was supported by the Stewards and stands.


Rally Advisory Panel – Steve Horobin (Chairman not in attendance).

04.7

No Panel Representative in attendance. Panel Minutes of meeting July 31 presented for acceptance.

Item 07-0807-09.1 PRC PCYC Rally Issues dealt with in Stewards Advisory Panel Report.


State Manager – Michael Masi – Not in attendance and presented by Michael Gates.

5.4

...
Rally Registration - OAMPS and QBE (RTA Insurer) have agreed to wording to be included in the new insurance policy to cover the RTA with the conditional registration scheme. Once the new policy is into effect the following basic steps will occur:

o QBE and CAMS sign the memorandum of understanding

o QBE informs RTA.

o RTA then incorporates rally vehicles into Conditional Registration scheme.

Rally Australia - As many would be aware the Australian round of the WRC “Rally Australia” has been announced and this will be held in northern NSW 3-6 September 2009 and every 2nd year thereafter in accordance with the FIA rotation policy. Events NSW and Rally Australia have entered into an agreement for 5 editions of Rally Australia in NSW.


02-0908-SE-06 CORRESPONDANCE:
Inwards:

• Letter of Resignation from NSW Rally Advisory Panel Chairman – effective immediately.

SE-02-0908-04 RESOLVED that this be accepted with regret and that he be thanked for his services to the Panel and rallying.

02-0908-SE-07 MOTIONS ON NOTICE:

• John Buckley (not in attendance) – NSW Rally Advisory Panel submits this motion as a consequence of the resignation of the current Rally Advisory Panel Chairman..

Motion:
• That the 2008 Rally Panel be dissolved and thanked for their work.
• That Mr Graham Humphreys be appointed by the State Executive to act as Rally Co‐ordinator until the end of this competition year and advise the State Club and Sports Development Officer as required in gathering the information for the 2009 Competition Year.
• That the State Executive record their thanks for the work of the outgoing Rally Panel Chair.


SE- 02-0908-06 MOVED D Healy/G Emerton that as a result of the current Chairman of the Rally Advisory Panel that the NSW Rally Advisory Panel be disbanded for the remainder of 2008. As a result of this action the following appointments be made to deal with any of the rally matters that arise between now and the end of 2008:

• Mr Graham Humhreys to be appointed as Rally Co-ordinator to carry out the role of paperwork checker for any rally and rallysprint events that are programmed to be run for the remainder of 2008.

• Mr Matt Sosimenko be appointed to carry on with the maintenance of the Rally Championship and Series point scores and
Mr Adrian Dudok, Mr Ian Bigg and Mr Jim Gleeson be appointed to compile and set the 2009 Rally Championship, Series and Rallysprint Championship Calendars.

All functions to be carried out in conjunction with the delegated NSW Club and Sports

Development Officer and further that a letter of thanks for the services they have performed on behalf of CAMS and the rally fraternity be forwarded to each member of the disbanded NSW Rally Advisory Panel. CARRIED 6.0.0

Originally Posted by State Exec Saturday 18, October

SE-02-0908-04 – Letter of thanks to Rally Panel Members – This has been completed – CLOSE

04.7 Rally Advisory Panel – Written Report received from NSW Rally Working Group.
08.03 Rally Working Group Documents.

08.03.1 NSW Rally Competition Conditions 2009.

This paper contains the NSW Rally Competition Conditions for the:

2009 State Rally Championship

2009 NSW 2WD Rally Championship

2009 NSW Clubman Series 2WD & 4WD.

2009 NSW Race Brakes Excel Rally Series.

2009 NSW Rallysprint Series.

08.03.2 NSW Rally Series Organisers Conditions.

This paper contains the NSW Rally Series Organisers Conditions for the:

2009 State Rally Championship

2009 NSW 2WD Rally Championship

2009 NSW Clubman Series.

2009 NSW Race Brakes Excel Rally Series.

2009 NSW Rallysprint Series.

SE-02-0810-09 MOVED A Dudok/A Papadopoulos that the State Executive approve the above documents as presented. CARRIED 8/0/0

State Council 16th FEBRUARY 2008]

Nothing of interest Rally related.

State Council Saturday October 18]

02-0810-SC-01 Receipt of Report of Previous Meeting:

02-SC-0810-01 MOVED C Bethwaite/A Dudok that the report, as received, of the meeting held August 15, 2008 be received. CARRIED


04.07 Rally Advisory Panel (John Buckley reported):

Rally Advisory Panel Chairman resigned in September and this has resulted in the Panel for 2008 being disbanded and a Rally Working Group being formed to tend to items that arise for the balance of 2008. This groups has to date:

o Submitted and had approved the 2009 Rally Organisers Conditions. This has been approved by the State Executive.

o The 2009 Rally Competitors Conditions. This has been approved by the State Executive

o Formalised the competition calendar for 2009. This will be submitted to the State Executive at its next meeting.

The Working Group had a problem in that they received requests to conduct more events for 2009 than they had positions available which would indicate that rallying is healthy in NSW.

Numbers have been down at events in 2008 but it is hoped that this will be rectified for 2009.

NSW in September 2009 will host a round of the 2009 World Rally Championship and this will continue to take place every 2 years. The event will be run in the northern sector of NSW.

Thanks is extended to the Working Group for the efforts and time that they have put in to achieve the things they have so far this year.

[ropie]

Thanks for that, I can say that I didn't know of any motion put up by rap to disband themselves. All very interesting reading.

Now is there any way of finding the competitor conditions for series 2009, just to see if changes that were proposed will take affect.

Richard Opie.

[Jimmy]

Originally Posted by ropie

Thanks for that, I can say that I didn't know of any motion put up by rap to disband themselves. All very interesting reading.

Richard Opie.

Or that John Buckley was a member of or represented the NSWRAP in any way...did I miss something here..

[legend]

my understanding of this material is that the RAP minutes reported some discussion that were critical of Arcom, so they were not accepted.

minutes are what minutes are - a record of what took place. you can't just reject them and send them away to be re-written just because you don't agree with them. Unless of course you are Sir Humphrey.

Another item of interest is from April 12, when all of a sudden they decided there was a "need for communication to organisers explaining excess and insurance policies" How many times have we all been told CAMS insurance is none of your business?

[Jme]

Neil Turner: "disappointing that no-one in attendance put forward any suggestions on how theses problems could be addressed."

That's just a straight lie.

There were numerous suggestions- they just didn't like them.

[Jme]

Originally Posted by legend

minutes are what minutes are - a record of what took place. you can't just reject them and send them away to be re-written just because you don't agree with them.

What they should have done is what the State Exec did... "The NSWRP fully support ARCom.." It's a YES thing. You can't represent competitors, you must represent CAMS.

They just don't get it, or if they do- they don't care.

My take on 08 was that the NSWRP had an opinion and said a few things. Not all I agree with mind you, but I like the fact that the panel were 'out of line' and 'controversal'. That type of panel in the long run will serve the sport better than a group of YES men. They were dismissed

The competitor forum was used by a dozen or so competitors to let CAMS know they need to do things differently, put rallying back into the hands of rallying people and provide simple, effective administration for ALL levels of the sport.
Neil Turner was disappointed no-one had a suggestion

The State and Clubman series struggled for numbers and 'the alternative' gathered momentum.
People have started to vote with their feet, or stay home

The NSW ARC round barely attracted a NSW entry.
but you can't be negative- we support ARCom

All CAMS needs to do is join the dots and take a look at the picture. But unfortunately they won't.

[afifield]

From the small number of things that I've had direct contact with, the State Exec's interpretation is just plain BS. Alternate realities anyone?

Maybe the voting clubs need to think long and hard about who they appoint as their representatives.

I'm happy with Mr Collier representing RCCA, as he calls a spade a spade when needed. Unfortunately his involvement with rallying ended about 20 years ago.

[Miss]

It's not all about who the delegate is. It's getting delegates there who will actually see through the BS and take a stand.

I've been to one SC meeting and what a bloody waste of time that was. I won't go again.

Don't bother asking any tough questions (like "what is the role of the State Officiating Panel in the upgrading process") because you'll get all the avoidance strategies they can come up with and if you still arc up you're told "now is not the time" and if that fails they resort to personal insults.

One of the many problems is that council and panel membership is not equitable. Meetings are held in the Sydney metro area, in many cases mid-week, and there's no latitude for teleconferences. That rules out so many fantastic people and we are left with retirees who've been CAMS men all their life and wonder why it's not like it used to be in the good old days.

[Spac]

Y'know, something just occoured to me: I was hearing criticism of the 08 RAP right at the start of the year - like before they'd even met...

Is anybody not p155ed off over this?

[Daveee]

Wow. Those minutes stink.

Where would one lodge a query about the actions of the State Exec?

[scooter]

Having been exposed to the NSW system for a few years (I was a NSW RAP member 1998-2000, although I was largely absent in 2000 because the Army sent me to Puckapunyal), and now the Qld system (QRAP member for the last five or so years, and CAMS State council delegate for my car club for the last three or so years) I've seen two completely different models of management in operation.

The NSW system has been adequately described elsewhere, but it's worth making a comparison to the Qld system, which, without trying to sound like the worst kind of parochial Qlder, I think works better, albeit with a bit more time invested by all concerned. It's not perfect, but certainly seems to work better than the NSW system. Minutes from the QSC and Qld advisory panels are on the CAMS website.

In Qld the full QSC meets every month with the CAMS Board Member, State Manager, his assistant and advisory chairs as guests. Those clubs that are located some distance from Brisbane (central and northern Qld) have a representative on the QSC who is Brisbane-based with whom they have regular correspondence to discuss issues affecting their club. Minutes from advisory panel meetings are all tabled and their recommendations discussed with input from the relevant advisory panel chairman. Delegates all participate in the meeting equally and are free to speak up and discuss any point, although excessive ranting tends to be truncated. This means all clubs have equal input that to an extent depends on the ability of the delegate to express themselves, but equal respect is shown to those who are not as 'eloquent' at some. There are at times heated discussions between passionate people with disparate views, but despite this and the relatively large number of people present, the chairman controls the meeting well so it generally doesn't drag on past 2 hours in length. Many delegates are also members of various advisory panels and with the exception of very few, are active participants as a competitor, official or steward. Thus, dissatisfaction from the rank and file doesn't take long to capillitate up. The entire QSC votes on any issues that cannot be resolved by unanimous agreement.

It's not all beer and skittles and there is at times 'politicking', but the fact that the meetings are a relatively open environment with many attendees and occur regularly mean that it rare for a decision to be made that is clearly wrong.

[Dave Kelly]

Originally Posted by Spac

Y'know, something just occoured to me: I was hearing criticism of the 08 RAP right at the start of the year - like before they'd even met...

Is anybody not p155ed off over this?

Well isn't it good to see then that CAMS has a strategy to combat such personal criticism for the 2009 RAP , by simply keeping the chairmanship and membership a secret?


On a less tongue-in-cheek note though, how is NSW/ACT planning to put forward their nominee for membership of ARCom? For 2009 there is a new membership model for Commissions whereby each State puts forward one nominee per Commission (noting that Col as confirmed 2009 Chair is not counted as the NSW/ACT nominee for that purpose).

Perhaps John Buckley as the recent spokesperson for the NSW RAP might need to be contacted to get his perspective and tell the NSW State Council what the Rally Communities opinion is? (.........oh yes, just in case readers didn't notice, I have drifted back into sarcasm territory again... )

David

[Marcus]

Is John Buckley the mythical "Flat in Fifth"?

And isnt there a TINY issue with having a motion proposed with your not even in attendance?

Yep it all stinks. Everyone, to the AMSAG cave!

[Daveee]

Additionally, does someone have a copy of the 'offending' NSWRAP minutes? Surely somebody saved a copy that they would be kind enough to forward to me? After all, once it's on the internet, it's not coming back off.

I'd like to perform some analysis.

[Mathew Boorman]

Well the Standing Orders make interesting reading.

The State Exec Members can be dismissed by a Vote of No Confidence by the State Council. Such a meeting needs 2 weeks notice.

Note that the entire 2009 State Council is composed of the Nominations, including one J Buckley.

According to the Regs, each club should have 1 page resumes of ALL the nominations for State Council Executive. (Posted before the election in October)

I'll be contacting contact my Club Secretary to get a copy of those for the 2009 council.