Hang on a minute - CAMS Online Conditions of Use

[Factor]

I was checking the manual as is my want at this time of night and for the first time when checking it on line - I got the following message:

Before accessing the content of the CAMS Online Manual of Motor Sport and National Competition Rules, you are required to read and accept the Conditions of Use:

1.
The Confederation of Australian Motor Sport Ltd ACN 069 045 665 (CAMS) is the owner of the copyright and all other intellectual property rights in the CAMS Manual of Motor Sport and National Competition Rules. CAMS is the owner of the CAMS Trade Marks (whether registered or unregistered).
2.
CAMS authorises the purchaser (and only the purchaser) of an authorised copy of the CAMS Manual of Motor Sport or National Competition Rules to reproduce, communicate to the public or make an adaptation of those documents only for the purpose of planning, conducting or competing in a motor sport event sanctioned (or to be sanctioned) by CAMS.
3.
CAMS authorises the downloading and reproduction of a copy of the whole or any part of the CAMS Manual of Motor Sport or National Competition Rules only from CAMS’ website at CAMS Online Manual of Motor Sport and only for the purpose of planning, conducting or competing in a motor sport event sanctioned (or to be sanctioned) by CAMS.
4.
Any reproduction, adaptation, communication to the public or any other act comprised in the copyright(s) in the CAMS Manual of Motor Sport or National Competition Rules for any purpose in respect of any motor sport event not sanctioned (or to be sanctioned) by CAMS is expressly prohibited unless previously authorised in writing by CAMS’ CEO.
5.
CAMS expressly prohibits any use of its Trade Marks for any purpose unless previously authorised in writing by CAMS or permitted by law.
6.
CAMS may vary these conditions of use at any time by posting a copy of the varied conditions of use to its website at CAMS Online Manual of Motor Sport and such varied conditions of use will apply to any documents downloaded from the website after such a notice is posted or any reproduction, adaptation or communication of a printed document made after that time.
7.
You should check the current conditions of use at CAMS’ website at CAMS Online Manual of Motor Sport prior to each occasion of making any reproduction, adaptation or communication of the whole or any part of the CAMS Manual of Motor Sport or National Competition Rules.


I have read and agree to CAMS Conditions of Use for the CAMS Manual of Motor Sport and National Competition Rules.

There was an OK/Cancel button between the para 7 and the last para.


Well CAMS you are wrong - dead wrong - you are not the owners of the intellectual property in at least one part of the manual - I AM

I wrote the Showroom RAlly CAr regs and they were freely given into the use of CAMS with the clear and unequivocal statement that I retained the intellectual property - So stop claiming something you dont own. I will call FOUNTAIN on the morrow and give him the ultimatum, stopped claiming something that isn't yours or I will take the appropriate actions.

Who the fornicating Hades do these people think they are.

My effing goodness, between this and the stupid Arcom rule about manufacturers, - I mean are these the two pressing issues in motorsport?

*************

Addittional comments after calming down:

I am sure that this was a general "sweep up" of all things that CAMS thought it should protect, I am also sure they didn't intend to breach my personal rights. I will write to the CEO and would esxpect a reasonable outcome sometime after the AGP, this is not the most pressing issue and I am prepared to wait till they get space to deal with it.

Having said that - clearly this is a strategy designed to inhibit the ability of others to easily run events. Whether that is a breach of the Corporations Act and the Constitution is matter for debate. Morally however it is wrong.

[Fletch]

Factor,

[Fletch]

Just ask CAMS. They own motorsport in Australia. They used to threaten every other entity that tried to run any motorsport. I know that they threatened AMSAG for years.
Cams has a long history of claiming things that the own things which in fact they don't.

[tortfeaser]

That's ****ed. Just another body failing to see that only good things grow from GPL/creative commons licensing.

[Marcus]

Originally Posted by tortfeaser

That's ****ed. Just another body failing to see that only good things grow from GPL/creative commons licensing.

If you read most of the stuff in the manual, it was created in the similar methods of GPL / creative commons. Very little of it was a CAMS product - it came either from those who made the rules in the first place to overseas sources. And there's a lot of it not created by them visibily, like the FIA rules.

Technically, CAMS owns the copyright to the presentation (That's how publishers can claim copyright over say Shakesphere, the words are not protected but the presentation is). As for the rules themselves? VERY unlikely. They can not also claim copyright over rules that no owner can be identified for.

The trademark claims are fair in the -I might point out that trademarks CAN be used without permission - in parody or in protest.

4.
Any reproduction, adaptation, communication to the public or any other act comprised in the copyright(s) in the CAMS Manual of Motor Sport or National Competition Rules for any purpose in respect of any motor sport event not sanctioned (or to be sanctioned) by CAMS is expressly prohibited unless previously authorised in writing by CAMS’ CEO.

Interesting this one. Probably not legal given where most rules came from. Presentation, yes they could claim, not the words themselves.

[Crazy Dave]

They better not start pretending they own anything to do with the excel series and its regulations. A group of people formed the excel rules and have CAMS were putting it into the manual so we can run a couple of exemptions (well one really at the moment), and thats it. We let them publish it so we can be a participate in CAMS rounds in the condition we want. They don't own that.

[tasman26]

Has anyone else seen their latest CAMS confidentiality agreements?

There is a specific clause in relation to the ceding of copyright, which for a volunteer organisation is rude in the extreme.

It would be a different matter in the case of employment, but for volunteers - come on, get a life.

[Spac]

So, what does this really mean?

4. Any reproduction, adaptation, communication to the public or any other act comprised in the copyright(s) in the CAMS Manual of Motor Sport or National Competition Rules for any purpose in respect of any motor sport event not sanctioned (or to be sanctioned) by CAMS is expressly prohibited unless previously authorised in writing by CAMS’ CEO.

My gut feel is that its intended to stop any AASA events cutting and pasting CAMS regs. Regardless of the right or wrong of such a move, that's not what I'm worried about.

What I am worried about is that it might also encompass general discussion, such as on these forums, and/or that the CAMS' rules cannot even be used as a reference point.

Eg1: Someone starts a thread that asks "How does A-A timing work?". Replies include quotations from camsmanual.com.au - the way I read points #2 & #4, the reproduction is not related to a specific, CAMS permitted event, and is therefore "illegal".

Eg2: Someone asks "I'm going to build a rally car. I want it to be legal for AMSAG and CAMS events - what can I do to it?". Again, if someone summarises ("adaptation") the CAMS regs, then that too is 'illegal'.

In fact, the more I look at that list of commandments, the more I can see Big Brother in it.

[Marcus]

Originally Posted by tasman26

Has anyone else seen their latest CAMS confidentiality agreements?

There is a specific clause in relation to the ceding of copyright, which for a volunteer organisation is rude in the extreme.

It would be a different matter in the case of employment, but for volunteers - come on, get a life.

Oh wow this is one hell of a grey area! Dangerous waters sighted ahoy captain!

Certainly, if it's a paid work (ie the client pays you to create the work) then they indeed have a claim to cedeing copyright. However, unless you explicitly sign over the copyright, CAMS can not claim it. Thence if say Andrew did not cede copyright, then CAMS can NOT claim it it is conceded. It was not a paid work done on behalf of CAMS.

The Excel guys also, unless they explicitly signed the right over, CAMS can not claim it. It is not a paid work and it was not done for CAMS benefit or was it done at CAMS behest in the first place. Thence, they can have no claim over it unless ALL the authors agree.

This stinks of a lawyer reaching too far or CAMS not understanding CAMS volunteers are not creating copyright works for CAMS and that copyright law doesnt work without explicit signing away of rights.

By the way, this post is copyrighted. (Yes, that is legal!) I give everyone but Andrew Crawford permission to quote this post as deemed necessary. Andrew may quote this post for any reason. Any employee of CAMS, I will deny all requests to copy this work for any purpose unless 10,000 dollars is paid to myself.

I might point out what I have done is completely legal. Pay up CAMS

[Marcus]

Originally Posted by Spac

So, what does this really mean?



My gut feel is that its intended to stop any AASA events cutting and pasting CAMS regs. Regardless of the right or wrong of such a move, that's not what I'm worried about.

What I am worried about is that it might also encompass general discussion, such as on these forums, and/or that the CAMS' rules cannot even be used as a reference point.

Eg1: Someone starts a thread that asks "How does A-A timing work?". Replies include quotations from camsmanual.com.au - the way I read points #2 & #4, the reproduction is not related to a specific, CAMS permitted event, and is therefore "illegal".

Eg2: Someone asks "I'm going to build a rally car. I want it to be legal for AMSAG and CAMS events - what can I do to it?". Again, if someone summarises ("adaptation") the CAMS regs, then that too is 'illegal'.

In fact, the more I look at that list of commandments, the more I can see Big Brother in it.

Apologies for double post.....

This is a fair question and on the front of the law, there is no right that would allow this. Your pondering isnt as silly as it sounds.

However, there are four areas where copyright can be overridden. One place is called "Fair Use Doctrine" where the quoting of part of a copyright work is allowed for the purposes of study or discussion. A discussion on the two areas you have pondered would fall under fair use when a fair and resonable section of text is quoted. This means you can not quote huge chunks - but you may say post a paragraph and link to the original work.

Now as to my above post, this means CAMS could find a fair use if they quoted one line. They however are definatly not allowed even under fair use to quote in entireity.

[Miss]

I know a little about copyright (being in the line of work where 90% of what is written refers to someone else's work) and what has been said about who owns what is on the mark, i.e. if I write something for the specific purpose of providing a service that I'm paid for then the employing body "owns" my lecture notes, lecture slides and any recording of the lecture. The content however, remains my property, even though 90% of it wasn't my work to start with. Translate that into CAMS world - they own the Manual but not the content, and they cannot stop anyone from talking about motorsport codes or rules out of context of the CAMS manual.

Now, what can be reproduced? I'm not sure if it's just education providers who lie within this exemption, or anyone using material for educational purposes... but there is a clause in the Copyright act that allows me (us, we, them) to copy one Chapter OR 10% of any publication without "permission". If we want more then we have to have permission ($$$) to distribute the publication.

Translate into CAMS world - I think that if we are quoting sections, or indeed whole Chapters of the CAMS manual for the purposes of educating someone then that's allowed under the copyright act. And if it only applies to people in the field of Education then send your questions to me, I'll gladly furnish you with answers

Just one thing though, can we stop doing all this work for them? I mean Gawd, as soon as they come up with some stupid rule we tell them how it's illegal or how it will be a death wish to X number of enthusiasts... let's just allow them to find the bottom of the pit all by themselves so then we won't have to wait so long before rebuilding.

[MattC]

Originally Posted by Miss

Just one thing though, can we stop doing all this work for them? I mean Gawd, as soon as they come up with some stupid rule we tell them how it's illegal or how it will be a death wish to X number of enthusiasts... let's just allow them to find the bottom of the pit all by themselves so then we won't have to wait so long before rebuilding.

Lizzy

I have been waiting for this since 1986, they just keep digging

[Mike Cherry]

Just went into the manual, no conditions of use required!

[Factor]

Its amazing - its gone - thank god for little victories

[VicMike]

Curious, I still get the conditions of use pop up.