ARC Control Tyre Mania

[smee]

Originally Posted by sheps

I agree there may be some issues in the ARC tyres but in general we are heading in the right direction.
We all stood in a room last year in SA and put hands up asking for a control tyre and we are moving in the right direction.
I believe the powers to be are trying to change the ARC to get more state level competitors back into the ARC, they may not get all the decisions right straight away but the direction they are heading in is great.

we also have a teams group that all of us talk through to have our voice heard with ARCOM and ARC and CAMS another thing that is in place for us to make things better.

I read more upset on this group than I hear from ARC competitors.

Not to set the cat amongst the pidgeons BUT!!!!

There are 2 levels of communication.

Those at the ARC level believe everything is all rosy and heading in the right direction, yet those whom form the majority positions in regards competitors, volunteers and people on the ground think it is going in the other direction.

Either the sport is going well, or it is not.

The ARC Club will have a job ahead of it to convince anyone that it's all fine in the other field and you should come and play, especially when so many competitors or those you are trying to entice are going off to find something else to do.

Just my 2cents, but I don't see it.

[flat04]

Smee, 'The ARC' doesn't need to appeal to the majority of competitors. The majority of competitors will never get to that level. Just like the majority of circuit racers wont compete in F1 or V8 Supercars.

Seeing as the topic is about the control tyre situation, the survey was done and the majority of respondents were in favour of one being brought in. As Sheps has stated, the survey was double checked with direct communication to the people most affected by the change and they voted in favour of the control tyre too. There was concern that the >$6500 tyre bills per event were limiting the number of teams competing in the ARC. With the control tyre brought in these bills will be at least halved. That's great for the sport as far as I can tell. I couldn't imagine spending mega bucks on a car, transport, entry fees, fuel, parts etc and not being on a competitive tyre because $20k extra a season put the budget over the edge.

The ARC isn't 100% perfect, most people know that, but I see it as changing for the better at the moment. Am I more convinced this year that as a privateer it would be a better place to compete? Absolutely. Now if they can just sort out the fuel expense then that will take another huge chunk out of the budget the teams need to spend but those extra steps are not for me to decide but for those people likely to be the ones competing or managing our sport/teams.

From my lowly view there seems to be an increasing number of competitors looking at running in the ARC this year. Is it more than at the peak of the sport, No. Is it more than ran last year, Looks to be. So everyone can bang on about how the sport is going in the wrong direction etc but if it's better than last year and next year is better than this year then we're heading in the right direction aren't we??

I personally like the control tyre introduction, I personally think the ARC looks like it will be better this year than last, so well done to everyone involved. Shep's, great post. Thanks for the view from a current teams perspective.

Andrew

[Dave Kelly]

Originally Posted by flat04

Smee, 'The ARC' doesn't need to appeal to the majority of competitors. The majority of competitors will never get to that level. Just like the majority of circuit racers wont compete in F1 or V8 Supercars. ....

G'day Andrew,

Whilst you make some good points in your post, I do think your argument re appeal and aspirations is somewhat fallacious and thus for me at least I still find myself loudly applauding Smee's post (and I stand by and now make public the +ve rep I gave him where I said I thought it was one of the best posts by anyone that I have read here in my 4 years of hanging around!).

The analogy that you suggest with the difference between the "majority of circuit racers" not going to ever compete in "F1 or V8 Supercars" and those of us in most rallying and the ARC, falls down IMO for a number of reasons.

Firstly, for a reasonably financially viable event to run as an ARC they seem to have to demand the piggy-backing of State events onto them. This is different to a support race running at some other time on a weekend program with the V8's or at Albert Park insofar as the imposition on the State level competitors involves significant additional cost over other "non-ARC piggy backed events".

Secondly, there is far more trickle down (in fact in the past it has been something more of a "raining down") of additional requirements on State level and below rallying simply because it was thought a good idea at ARC (or higher aspirational levels). There has been a little less of this in the last year or so, however the anger lingers over significant additional costs being put onto State and club level rallying simply in order to ensure that the supposed eligibility step between those levels and the ARC isn't that great (IIRC this was widely circulated for some years as ARCom's raison d'être for a whole bunch of requirements that were foisted on State and Club level competitors and events etc).

Thirdly, rallying is MUCH smaller and close knit than circuit racing and so appearances of things being "not quite right" at the ARC naturally has an effect on many in OUR sport simply through the closeness, size and greater camaraderie that we enjoy in rallying.

To many of us I feel sure that it is this closeness and accessibility of the sport that attracts us to rallying over other forms of motor sport (particularly as compared to circuit racing). Therefore, naturally we take a strong interest in what happens at the ARC and from past history of some pretty ordinary series management, there is a healthy degree of cynicism when we see obvious screw ups like what occurred over the tyres in Tasmania debacle.

Cheers

Dave
(apparently 102 years young today!)

[old man]

Originally Posted by Dave Kelly

Cheers

Dave
(apparently 102 years young today!)

Dave,
from one old man to another.... Happy Birthday!!!!



Cheers,

[Troy]

I think it is a glass half full or empty situatuin.
I tend to agree with Andrews take on things. It is getting better, which is better than it getting worse.
Realisticly there are very few ARC competitors. How many are truely sponsored, not by Dad and the family business , but by truely indepentant sponsors.Quinn is, Bates was. Niether Evans car is nor Smart. Shepard probably not either.
These are the real ARC competitors plus the others that I cant think of right now or be bothered to look up.
These are the people that need to make the decisions that effect them directly, and this seems to be what is happening thru the entrants group. Are they happy with the control tyre? Not completley, but it was largley a contractors failure helped by not following the WRC model closely enough. Will some of them change there veiws on this for next year? Probably. The art of managment is not to make perfect decisions every time ,but to react to less than perfect decisions and come out better for it.
There is a huge difference between competing in the ARC and competeing in an ARC round. These 2 things seem to get confused all to regularly!!
To run Coffs for example you can enter the Allcomers section and 95% of the ARC requiements do not apply to you. You still get full FIV coverage and numerous other benefits without paying the full entry fee or complying with a lot of these onerous regs that a lot of competitors seem to complain about.
The fact that you can compete on the same stages as the countries best on the same day, in some of the most demanding events in the country for a fraction of the cost is a fantastic thing.
Should everyone appear on one set of results? Probably. Is it easy to compare 2 sheets of paper, one with the winners times and another with yours. One would hope that if you are capable of building a car or navigating in one then this should be a simple task for you.
Do I love the ARC, not really. Do I want to compete in it ?No. Am I going to compete in an ARC round ? Yes.

Just my thoughts.

[Dave Kelly]

Originally Posted by old man

Dave,
from one old man to another.... Happy Birthday!!!!



Cheers,

Thanks Stuart, although I should 'fess up that despite the appearance of being a centenarian I still have in fact a couple of years of my '40's left to run (as of today).. and then hopefully many more decades after that!

Please resume normal service now!

Dave

[Dave Kelly]

Originally Posted by Troy

... There is a huge difference between competing in the ARC and competeing in an ARC round. These 2 things seem to get confused all to regularly!!
To run Coffs for example you can enter the Allcomers section and 95% of the ARC requiements do not apply to you. You still get full FIV coverage and numerous other benefits without paying the full entry fee or complying with a lot of these onerous regs that a lot of competitors seem to complain about.
The fact that you can compete on the same stages as the countries best on the same day, in some of the most demanding events in the country for a fraction of the cost is a fantastic thing....

Troy,

That has not universally been the case with events piggy-backed onto ARC's. In the past here in Victoria the imposed State onto ARC piggy-back incurred a MUCH higher entry and running cost than the normal stand alone State event (by a factor of about 300 to 400% in some years IIRC).

For those that enjoyed running alongside the ARC and the challenge etc of that.. well that is great (and there were plenty in that category), however there were plenty of others that this piggy-backing created a bit of a problem for (particularly in terms eating up a significant percentage of ones annual rally budget on a single event (or even the contrived double State rounds)) and hence why it is the compulsory nature of State events supporting ARC's that some find a bit irksome!

OK.. I have places to be and things to do...

Dave

[Troy]

Dave
Whether an ARC round is part of the state championship has little to do with the health of the ARC. When it was at its peak, (was that in the early 80s with Ford, Holden and Datsun, or was that in the 90s with Toyota, Subaru and Mitsubishi? I really dont know) ARC rounds were state rounds. From memorie in those days the difference was state competitors droped a stage or 2.
We must stop blaming the failures of the past for our future. Yes some decisions were flawed and contributed to our current position, but other factors have had major rolls in our current position.
I dont think for a moment that we should forget what has happened but we need to move forward. I think the entrants group is a very positive step. If they prove successfull in getting the ARC to run the way they need it to for financial success, without impacting on the lower level competitor, then that is very good start.
There are a number of things that an ARC round brings to a region that are positive. Not the least of which is the TV coverage. Like it or not it opens doors to both sponsors and local government, that otherwise would be very hard to achieve.
As for the state competitors, I understand the cost of compition only to well, but I dont understand the resistance to running with the ARC. To travel away to an event, when you live on one extreme of the rallying landscape you must travel some huge distances to follow a series,it is far better to do 2 or 3 days rallying for a slightly higher entry fee than it is to do a rally sprint type of event. It is simple bussiness logic.
Using Coffs as an example the descion was made to start the event on Friday and run 30km competitive in the afternoon and then a super special Friday evening. We did this as the crews are already here and otherwise only the select few would do media day. All others would be siting on there hands spending money on accommodation for no rally return.I know the entry is slightly higher than a stand alone state round but competitors will get so much more for that money. It appears that in NSW few are interested in following the state series but many want to complain about the events that are on offer.It seems to me that some competitors want to do a sreies but they also want the events to be as short as possible. On the other side of the coin directors are answering a call for endurance events from club level competitors. It leaves me rather confused as to what people really want.

By default I have been draged into assisting with the running of Coffs. I have no interest in event managment or direction, but I do want to compete and I will be in Coffs, If I dont help with the lead up work then there will not be an event in Coffs.
Just a few thoughts that are in the mix master that passes as my mind.

[Dave Kelly]

Troy,

I suspect you have completely missed the points I have been trying to make, however that is my fault for not being clear enough. So be it and my apologies for the lack of clarity in my writing.

Good luck with whatever it is that you are doing towards assisting with the Coffs Event.

Cheers

David

PS. As something of an afterthought (of mine) I do wonder about this "interesting" comment of yours though...

Originally Posted by Troy

... Whether an ARC round is part of the state championship has little to do with the health of the ARC. ...

As if your statement was in fact true, then lets see some gravel ARC events run WITHOUT a mandated State component... and see whether (a) you'll actually find any club or entity prepared to stump up to run it; and (b) how many entries come along?

Perhaps I am speaking from my nether regions, however it appears to my feeble mind that the compulsory pigging backing of State events onto ARC's has EVERYTHING to do with the lack of health of the ARC (in terms of health being reasonably viewed through event competitor support at an ARC level and being able to attract enough competitors for an ARC event to be financially viable without forcing people competing in unrelated Championships/Series to have to compete).

Finally, with reference your comments regarding history of the long ago past, I cannot comment for the early '90's as I was at University in London through those years and not paying attention to stuff in rallying here in Australia, however I do have some recollections from the early '80's. I was around and active then, and at the many NSW State Championship events and ARC events I was either competing in, officiating at or simply spectating at etc.. I don't recall any ARC event/State event piggy backing occurring? I am happy to be wrong on that as really it is so long ago and perhap my memory is playing tricks on me (as well as the various event doc's I still have ) plus also I suppose what happened 30 years ago is somewhat irrelevant as towards the points I have been making about recent history with rallying and the ARC's influence and more importantly the future of such things!

Anyway, as I said... cheers... and good luck

Dave

[Ausrally]

Before we all go singling out the ARC needs other events to make it viable it can be argued the reverse is the same. (Just go and ask any ARC Director) Its not an ARC issue but a decline in rallying overall.

The fact that the sport has changed and we have some harsh economics on our hands.This has filtered down to just about every event.

And before anyone drags out the AMSAG wagon, its been around for donkeys years and good luck to it and I am glad it gets good numbers but even if you take on its numbers rallying in NSW is down a lot compared to yesteryear.

But so what? Its not the solution for all of rallying's ills....

Even smaller events in some places seem to struggle for numbers. Whilst the ARC has to do better (and IMV it is given its circumstances) we have to get more punters rallying. The ARC along with any other series will benefit from that.

The ARC is in rebuild mode and those charged with doing that are doing what the believe to be the best thing for the series. Their entrants will be the judge of how good they do. There are other series belly up.

Could they do better? sure, could clubs do better? sure, could CAMS do better? sure, could the RAPS do better? sure. WE ALL COULD DO BETTER....

We don't live in a perfect rally world. We never did and waiting for ARCom and RAPS and everyone else to get it just right is a waste of time. The sport will pass you by...

And as Lindsay Tanner said the other day " Its easy for the opposition, they are not the Government" (wish they were) Crikey I smell burning foil...

Could the more than 600 people who have rally cars in NSW get em out of the shed and USE THEM? Sure they could even if it was just a local khanacross.

We can all sit around like the two old muppets up in the box whinging and throwing rocks about the ARC, CAMS, Rallycorp, ARCom, RAPS and God knows who else, OR WE CAN GET OF OUR EVER INCREASING BIG ARSES AND GO RALLYING....

Now there's a new idea!

After all there is a rally near you waiting your entry. THEY NEED YOU TO ENTER

If you have one of those 600 or more cars sitting in the shed waiting for the rally world to be just perfect for you, enter an event and do it to preserve the sport you all claim to want to be better.

As an official last year I spent more a lot my own money so that in reality others could go skidding. Nothing gets on my goat more than to see the enormous effort that goes in to to making a rally happen, only to find excuses for non entry like.

"Its too hot, its too twisty, its too close to the Alpine, its raining, its in the wrong place, its too rough, the entry fee is too high,I don't like the area etc.

Are all excuses some used to not go in the NAT CAP rally. COME ON PEOPLE....

Officials get enjoyment out of SEEING YOU COMPETE AND ENJOYING YOURSELF... They need you to enter as much as you need to enter. Suppliers need you to enter, everyone relies on YOU to enter.

How would those who wanted to enter react to read a story;

"Rally organizers cancel event as it may be hot and the some roads may be rough"

Somewhere tonight there are a bunch of people giving up their time getting he next event ready.

Honour them by entering.

Find the money, get two jobs do what it takes.....

And that's rallyfans how we fix rallying!

Rally: Just do it.

[Rallyray]

I know plenty of people who are keen as to get out there and compete but they are sicking of jumping through hurdles for the priviledge.

And no passionate words from you will change the way they feel.

[Ian Bigg]

Ray

What is stopping them?

If they have a car and a budget then what is it that makes them leave the car in the shed ...

If I look around these days I see (coming soon in a variety of calendars) a number of events offered at a variety of levels under a couple of different organisational umbrellas ... opportunities seem to abound - so they should all be out & about in one event or another ...

[fro]

Originally Posted by Ian Bigg

If they have a car and a budget then what is it that makes them leave the car in the shed ...

Ian,

I know that I'll just feed Dallas misguided fervour, but I'm one of those people that will be leaving the car in the shed for most of this year. I will choose which events I want to do, and I'll choose them by examining what they offer.

I'll pick events that fit within what I perceive to be value for money.
I'll pick events that fit in with my personal/social calendar.
I'll pick events that offer the road conditions I want.

Most of all, I'll pick events that I think I'll enjoy.

And if I don't think that I'll enjoy an event (for a variety of reasons, including previous experience), I won't enter. Just like I didn't enter some of those events in 2009.

[Factor]

Same with me sort of - I will do the events I will enjoy. And that is an increasingly smaller poole, probably only the bay and Bega/Eden. JW is delusional about chasing silver cup, but I wont do events in canberra any more if I can help it, I hate feeling the car being destroyed around me.

That aside - if I hear - we are in a rebuilding phase again I will throw up Dallas. And anyway - you only have to rebuild something if you broke it. The ARC is rubbish and pointless and takes up far too much of arcom/cams/rallycrap's time. Many of us have said this before - but I will say it again, concentrate on the club level of the sport and and the rest will ultimately look after it self.

[fro]

Originally Posted by Factor

...but I wont do events in canberra any more if I can help it, I hate feeling the car being destroyed around me.

Glad to hear that I'm not the only one that feels like this. I thought I was alone for a while there.