CAMS Officials Apparel Matrix

[hev]

I read this topic (back on topic) the other day when Nicole posted it. The more I think about this issue, the more I think it is nuts...

Nic, I appreciate what you are trying to do, so please don't take this as any kind of personal thing...

For the Officiating Panel to decide (or whoever made the cockamamy decision for the OP) to put this matrix together is insane, and expecting one person to be the voice of so many from so many disciplines is even more insane. You simply cannot be that, despite your involvement across disciplines, the responsibility is simply too big for one person (even one person asking for the shared wisdom of many an armchair critic).

IF (and I use that word strongly) there is a need for a review of Officials clothing (which should be done PRIOR to any mandated matrix being put together) then surely each discipline's national body should be the ones reviewing what is required IF it is required. Then, and only then with the input of the appropriate disciplines, should the Officiating Panel be involved if required.

If the Rally Panel / ARCom say that there is no need (or it is contrary to common sense) to mandate clothing for officials, then that advice must be taken on board. They know what mandating this type of thing will do to the sport!! The only thing I want mandated is some common sense...

I would think that you have plenty of feedback already on this thread to indicate what 'the common man' involved in rallying (and thus many who have come from MK, KK, etc) thinks about this idea...

I think it would be a great idea to take this back to the OP with the feedback you have, and suggest politely that they either say "Ooops, that was a bad idea, let's leave it alone" or hand it over to the panels, and let them provide that feedback.

[Grant McQuillan]

Originally Posted by Griffo

Can't speak on behalf of those I didn't talk too regarding it but for me & a few other competitors, we laughed & thought ****ing idiots look at the car leading recce & just went & made notes so the event would get under way.
My initial thought was how hard that made it for double entered crews with different Navs. Normally some people in that circumstance do recce in their 4wd road car..

As a side note this particular steward was over herd asking another steward not officiating at the event why people were not wearing their driving suits at drivers briefing....

Could have knocked me over with a feather when steward said that full apparel must be worn during recce,as I have never seen that done before.has anyone?
Havnt had the chance today to investigate this further,but I will.
In my opinion if we submit supp regs to CAMS & NSWRAP and apparel during recce is a requirement and we havnt put that in the regs,shouldnt we be informed of said rule and add it to the regs?

C oF C
Nabiac Rallysprint

[crowleyaj]

Well said Hev, once again we agree on so many things. I'm glad Nicole put this topic up for discussion to 'get the word in the street' as we're receiving some great emails as well as the feedback here for her to take to the next SOP meeting. I particularly like Col Trinder's reply. This should have been talked about at higher levels between the various Commissions where it would have been (rightly so) knocked on the head. For the majority of events run in Australia, not just the grassroots level, all you need is comfortable clothing and sensible shoes. Experienced officials are leaving the sport at a faster rate than competitors, CAMS should be bending over backwards to keep them, not scare them off.

[Dave Kelly]

Originally Posted by Grant McQuillan

... In my opinion if we submit supp regs to CAMS & NSWRAP and apparel during recce is a requirement and we havnt put that in the regs,shouldnt we be informed of said rule and add it to the regs?

C oF C
Nabiac Rallysprint

Hey ya Grant,

Wearing of specific apparel during recce is not a CAMS regulatory requirement and to my knowledge never has been (unless someone cares to correct me?). With some apologies to said Steward, and I should say I have absolutely no idea who he or she is (and I am not interested in knowing either as it doesn't change the point one iota), they were talking out of their "bottom". I would have said arse, but that would only get the post deleted!

Of course, the fact it isn't a CAMS requirement doesn't stop an event organiser saying such and such is an additional requirement they might wish to have and including same in the Supp Regs.. Dare I suggest that next time around you might like to consider that, for Recce, competitors are required to nude up en masse Spencer Tunick style! Don;t worry, no one at CAMS will notice, as since permits have been centralised nationally, you could get away with putting just about anything in supp regs if you write it carefully enough

Just don't do that in Queensland as some there are a bit sensitive of that sort of thing (well it's either nudity or 240K's they don't like.. I can't quite recall which? .. but in NSW its almost de rigeur to run around in the buff I've heard... and who knows, if in 2011 your event coincides with the Mardi Gras again, maybe you can get some funding from the organisers of that! They'll go for it in a shot!

You might even get a few more competitors that'll come out of the closet to compete.



Dave

and yep... I am still compelled to sycophantically say how wonderful the CAMS website is. Can't recommend it highly enough! ... deep breaths... only 97 posts to go!

[Marcus]

Originally Posted by Grant McQuillan

Could have knocked me over with a feather when steward said that full apparel must be worn during recce,as I have never seen that done before.has anyone?
Havnt had the chance today to investigate this further,but I will.
In my opinion if we submit supp regs to CAMS & NSWRAP and apparel during recce is a requirement and we havnt put that in the regs,shouldnt we be informed of said rule and add it to the regs?

C oF C
Nabiac Rallysprint

I NEVER heard of such a requirement and I plain cant find it in the CAMS manual. Some Steward really needs a very pointed talking to because this is the kind of nonsense that makes an event less fun - and by no means safer.

[fro]

My response to Nicole. I hope she doesn't mind me posting it here:

Nicole,

Having read your recent post on bmsc.com.au about a possible "Apparel matrix" for officials, I thoguht I needed to send you some feedback regarding the issue.

Is this not another instance where CAMS is simply creating more requirements that require enforcement, and are subject to further investigation should they be called into question?

As an event organiser, an official and a competitor, I really think we should be letting people decide what is appropriate themselves, and mandating less. I fail to see the value for mandating officials apparel, particularly at events such as motorkhanas, khanacrosses and rallies. Are we not just creating yet more compliance issues, when we really haven't resolved the ones that we have already?

Or are we creating another requirement that won't be checked, and will alienate even more officials, much like the much-maligned officials licencing system, that rarely gets checked in the branches of motorsport that I'm involved in, and when it is checked, usually it's to the detriment of the good of the sport.

What is the impetus for even looking at officials apparel? Why is it a concern?

If you could pass this feedback on to the appropriate person, and I would like to hear some answers. If there are any.

Fro Horobin
0428 972 481

[Miss]

Okay so I spent a few hours at a circuit event yesterday and may have an answer as to 'WTF'?????

I was in the control tower and could see every flag point well. What I could also see very well was the yellow and orange hi-vis apparel worn by the flaggies.

My guess is, CAMS are catering to the LCD (aka 'circuit events') crowd.

Personally, I'm thrilled they're thinking of bringing this in. Either they'll supply me with the required gear, or the remaining clubs and Organisers will have their figurative backs broken and will piss off to insurance providers who actually have a clue about hazard and risk management.

Either way, it's win-win

[pvda]

Hey guys this thread is about officials apparel not recce or racing/rally competitor apparel

Originally Posted by moxo

Actually, as much as I'd enjoy slamming a few folks - those fire-suit rules are only for when there is racing / practicing that involves / requires pit-lane refuelling. The same rules were in place at the 12-hour race.

My point still stands, the local officials aren't supplied with uniforms that the series paid officials must wear as required.

Originally Posted by moxo

Funny that Col should mention hi-vis tabards, now virtually compulsory for photographers. Two years ago I was chased away from a flag point for wearing a 'non-neutral' coloured jacket in cold a driving rain. Oh well. OK, it was red. The guy that chased me off was wearing orange, but my red might have confused a driver. Uh-huh.

Here in Vic in circuit racing it's been relaxed somewhat in the past year or two to allow flouro orange/blue PPE workwear rain gear as getting neutral "white" wet weather gear is not as easy as it was. You can get some real good quality inexpensive hi viz workwear.

Mind you a pit crew member at Winton yesterday was hanging over the pit wall in a red shirt and was reminded it was not a good colour and I lost count of the number of people told off for wearing shorts in pit lane which isn't allowed by Winton.

Originally Posted by moxo

Jeese, it's such a common-sense thing, right? 'Appropriate' clothing - long pants/sleeves and a hat when it's sunny, appropriate footwear... Most officials are not complete idiots, so let's assume they're not.

Moxo you'd be amazed at the clothing some newer officials turn up to work in as in shorts, singlets, thongs and you'd be amazed at what they consider good wet weather gear. I learned the hard way at the Adelaide F1GP back in 1986 the importance of good full wet weather gear and proper boots as opposed to a spray jacket and runners

Just like a lot of us could drive up the Hume happily & safely at 160km/h (except last night ) we have speed limits to slow the death rate of the lowest common denominator in the population the same applies in motorsport.

[MichaelF]

Originally Posted by Miss

My guess is, CAMS are catering to the LCD (aka 'circuit events') crowd.

Thanks. Very kind of you to refer to my fellow track junkies as Lovely Circuit Drivers

I too am trying to understand where this is coming from. As others have said we have a hard enough time getting people to volunteer as it is.

And from where I have been directly affected as a competitor, CAMS have a very poor track record in implementing sensible policy (the OH&S stuff from a few years back was a classic).

Sure it is great that the person who is running with this is seeking feedback and obviously understands the concerns of club level events. However I fear that an answer back up the CAMS hierarchy of "we don't need an official's apparel policy" will be the "wrong" answer and a policy will be hastily drafted anyway.

[PeterO]

Originally Posted by Mike Cherry

Kinda in the same vein, at the State Rallysprint at Nabiac yesterday, competitors were required to wear helmets during recce.
This is a speed controlled activity.
The speed is controlled by a course car, manned by event officials and, I believe, an event Steward.
None of the occupants of the course car were required to wear helmets.
I would like to see the TRA for both cases for this one.

Supp Reg 25 said it all.

25. Apparel of non-flammable material covering the body from ankles, to wrists, to neck, together with socks and shoes or boots and an approved safety helmet must be worn by all crew members.

Now if the words "during timed runs" had been added to the Supp Reg, then they [helmets] would not have been required during recce. The officials in the lead car were not crew members, so the Reg didn't apply to them.

It's all in the way the Regs were written. The steward was merely telling it as the C of C had published it. Perhaps NEXT round ....

Peter

Yes, sorry, I know the thread is about officials clothing but just wanted to explain it as I read it.

[Factor]

Quite frankly thats rubbish -

If the regs say that and you say that means on recce as well then it also menas on liaison and indeed it means at all times - even when the crew are not in the car. To use your logic - where does it say - in the car - it doesnt thus they must be worn at all times.

This is precisely the sort of public service stupidity that ruins the sport

This is also a reason why I do not put anything in supp regs that is already in the Manual - What I do is remind people that Sched D exists. Its all ready there you dont need to re write it.

I mean honestly, if thats the justification then FFS

[Ric Cary]

after considerable discussion the organising team for RoL have come up with what we believe to be the most appropriate set of clothing and safety articles all officials will be required to use for the event ,we believe they take into consideration most aspects of the intended matrix, providing both Physical protection from debris and wildlife as well as taking into consideration the variances in atmospheric conditions likely to take place during the event

[Rallyray]

God Save you if Sosi turns up to official...

[Ric Cary]

Originally Posted by Rallyray

God Save you if Sosi turns up to official...

Sosi has actually already volunteered, he sent us this to see if it fitted within the expected parameters, I think he needs to buy his boxers 2 or 3 sizes bigger
You will note of course the particular emphasis on appropriate footwear

[Rallyray]

Dear God.......