Swapping Road Position In Control (was Ulladulla Results)

[Miss]

Originally posted by smee
SS6.
The antics played by one crew at the start of the stage gave me the ****s. If you make a mistake then you have to play by that mistake. Fair is Fair. Yes you may have caught the car in front, (I would not say taking 11 secs off them was catching) and they agreed to let you in and use up some of their late time, but to overtake 4 more cars in control then cut in and confuse the controllie and then get a 4 minute dust gap is utter and complete CRUD.

1. Get your facts straight Smee.
a) No one used up late time. Everyone booked in on time.
b) The "within 1 minute of the car in front" wasn't the clause used. It was "we're looking at a 30km stage and we WILL catch you and we think it will be dangerous, can we go in front of you" which they AGREED to, then the SS controllie said it was fine.
c) The subsequent actions were OKAYED by the controllie.
d) The dust gap we got was because we were sitting theree with 30secs to go and the Stage commander was told to stop counting down. We were all ready to go, if it wasn't for Sosi we wouldn't have received a dust gap.

2. If it was such an issue who didn't you, or the Stage commander, or anyone else for that matter protest it?

[smee]

People did....
And obviously because it did not effect the results one way or the other then the complaint was dismissed. The actions taken at the start of SS6 did effect Craigs driving in stage as he was over 3 minutes slower over it than the people he was around.
He was on average only 10 - 20 seconds a stage slower than your team, so if you caught 2 minutes on him in SS5 it would have put you faster than Rob Nunn.........

[whitey]

Originally posted by Miss
1. Get your facts straight Smee.
a) No one used up late time. Everyone booked in on time.
b) The "within 1 minute of the car in front" wasn't the clause used. It was "we're looking at a 30km stage and we WILL catch you and we think it will be dangerous, can we go in front of you" which they AGREED to, then the SS controllie said it was fine.
c) The subsequent actions were OKAYED by the controllie.
d) The dust gap we got was because we were sitting theree with 30secs to go and the Stage commander was told to stop counting down. We were all ready to go, if it wasn't for Sosi we wouldn't have received a dust gap.

2. If it was such an issue who didn't you, or the Stage commander, or anyone else for that matter protest it?

1. Smee has got it 99% correct
1a The pass was In Control
1b The stage times did not really suggest that you would catch us and the dust was bad for everyone. With that dust there is no way you got anywhere near enough to "see our tail lights" and then take only 11 seconds off us on Old Highway !!
WTF, I've heard some BS in my time- but OK we let you in front, if you are half as quick as you think we'll be eating less dust.

As it turned out we had a fuel pump issue and stopped early in the stage anyway.

1c. The controllie agreed that you could go in front of ONE car not THREE. Sosi and Smee certainly did not agree to you going in front of them.

1d. If you were doing the right thing then no one would have had to stop the count down on the line.

2. The stage commander did complete an incident report, it is just a shame the stewards did not follow thru, as there should be no room for competitors to do as they please just because they think they can get away with it.

[Miss]

Smee, I don't know why you're bringing Craig into it, we weren't in front of Craig. If you're looking at times maybe you should note that we set the 2nd fastest time on SS6.

Whitey. You're absolutely right, we did only take 11 (or 13?) secs off you on Stage 5. After we came to a complete stop for 8 seconds at a time about 4 times.

1c. You're right, when I went up with you we did agree that it was to be one car instead of three. But later, I asked car 14 if we could go in fron t of them, to which I got "You'd make my day" as a reply, and we asked the controllie AGAIN if we could move road positions, to which he agreed. You were'nt there when I spoke to the controllie for the second time. Of course you didn't know we had permission to move further up.

I was in the room when Biggles was talking to the CoC, I even asked him to explain to me what I had done wrong so I could be absolutely certain in my mind that the CORRECT process was, but I am still yet to be shown beyond a shadow of a doubt that it was I "should" or "should not" have done. As another point, there was a steward in the room as well, and he said nothing. Biggles left well I got an "answer", and the closest thing I got was from Cambell Waller. Not a steward, not a Stage Commander, not the CoC, the bluddy 00. It wasn't followed up because it wasn't clear whether it was right or wrong or sort of wrong. Not because no one bothered. Regardless, it seems you're out for blood. Unfortunately you'll not be getting any from me, even though I readily volunteered to go to the CoC and ASKED to be told what I had done wrong.

1d. The stage comander stopped us on the line because of the actions of another competitor. I even said to Ian as we were waiting on the line "this is holding up others, can we get a decision right here and now as to whether we start" which is when he changed our start time to 1804 (or 2004??? whatever). Apparently he thought the best thing to do at the time was to start us. Good for him, he was the Stage commander, not me, not anyone else, it was his decision. He could have stopped us and made us take another time, but he didn't.

I still am not sure what I can and can't do in that regard. I've been over and over the badly worded book and can't get a clear answer. Even now, I'd love for someone to direct me to the clause(s) where is specifically says I can't do it. Just for my piece of mind. And probably that of many others while they're at it.

[tortfeaser]

We've had this discussion before. See this thread

The only way you can get ahead of someone is for you to book in early or for that other person to book in late. There is no provision for stage commanders to allow shuffling. You start the stage in the order that you booked into the time control. If two people book in to the TC on the same minute, then whoever started the previous stage first gets the next provisional start 'slot'.

That's it. There is no more. There is no clause in the code telling you that you can do it, or anything like it. The book tells you what you are to do though - book in when you want to knowing the penalties for booking in late or early, then you get a minimum of 3 minutes in control, then you start. Anything outside this isn't allowed. You run a rally as if you were the only one on the road, and the stage commander starts cars in the order they booked in.

What is so hard about that? Biggles is experienced and might not have applied the rules strictly as he should have - he did write an incident report but apparently this wasn't acted on by the stewards. This is the real problem here - people have been getting away with this kind of ***** for so long with no penalty that directors are reluctant to charge anybody and stewards won't uphold the charge if presented.

If you stuff up and are running late down the order, then the increased dust is just one more penalty you pay for stuffing up.

Edited: To clarify a bit. My meaning hasn't changed though - this ***** has got to stop.

[Miss]

THANK EFFING CHRIST!!!!!!

Thanks Tort, Zen... I could see that a whole heap of sheet was about to be thrown in my direction when I really couldn't see what was wrong... Now I know why the Steward didn't do anything. Am I right in thinking that if the Steward did do something, it would be to rectify something that (given, it was in response to something I thought was okay to do) the Stage Commander *choosing words carefully* sould have considered for a longer time before deciding on?

Tort, the problem is seems is "suprisingly" with the book - Ian and I even had that discussion on Saturday night. I really wanted to see in black and white what I definitely could or mustn't have done, but alas no one could show me. I think what you're getting at is a bit more towards what I am looking for in an answer... but perhaps (as you noted) this sheet is going on, purposefully or otherwise, because it's not really really clear to either competitors or controllies what must or cannot happen.

Karl, I don't think the "heat" should be put on anyone at all. It seems that we were all in the same boat, we all thought what we were doing was within the rules. Biggsy, Locko or myself wouldn't have knowingly pushed the rules, that's why we went to sort it out on Sat night.

Cheers fellas Cyberspace: the answer to so many of life's questions!

[Bede]

On a slightly different topic...

What happens if you repeatedly catch and/or pass the competitor in front? You have to keep booking in behind them... but how can you get in front??

At Bega last year I caught the car in front 4 or 5 times (on one stage passing the flying finish board 1 second behind the car in front) before we managed to start in front of them (not sure how the Nav managed that).

So what is the correct way to do things? Or are you supposed to do the whole rally catching/passing them and hope that next time you get seeded in front?

[fro]

Yep, it's confusing. And of course, the badly worded book contradicts itself (not really, but kinda). I've only got the 2003 Manual (which is what I'm quoting from) at work, but I can't see these bits changing.

National Rally Code (NRC) 4.5 - Procedure at control:
(iv) - Start times for the next section will be allocated in the same sequence as the vehicle's actual arrival (except as provided in Regulation 2.11 (iv)), unless a crew agrees to a vehicle behind starting the section ahead of them.
(v) - When a car enters a control at the endof a special stage or road section within one minute of the preceding car its crew may request permission to start the next competitive section in front of the preceding car. Shoudl that car refuse, this should be recorded on the control card. Refusal to allow the same car to leave on two successive special stage or road sections may be considered deliberate obstruction.

Which is fine and dandy, but you can see that these rules were written for A-to-B timed events, where the swapping would be done at the control at the end of a stage, before competitors were sent out on liaison sections.

Most of us use the Australian Rally Championship Regulations Time Control Procedures, which is typical for A-to-A timed events, and specified in the Supp Regs for almost all Special Stage rallies in NSW. The control procedure there eliminates most of the stuff the NRC refers to, and the closest paragraph to this debate is here:

Australian Rally Championship Regulations 11.8 - Time Controls:
(ii) Check-in Procedure - (l) If two or more crews check in on the same minute at a time control immediately prior to the start of a Special Stage, their provisional start times for that Special Stage shall be in order of their relative arrival times at the preceding time control. If the arrival times at the preceding time control are the same, then the times at the time control previous to that one will be taken into account and so on.

[fro]

Originally posted by Bede
So what is the correct way to do things? Or are you supposed to do the whole rally catching/passing them and hope that next time you get seeded in front?

Umm, unless there's a regroup, pretty much, yep.

There doesn't seem to be a provision under the A-to-A timing system that we use (modelled off the ARC method) for passing people in control. To pass someone in control legitimately (ie, without fudging the controllie) requires someone to book in early or late...

At a regroup, you might be able to do something about it.

[smee]

Originally posted by Miss
Smee, I don't know why you're bringing Craig into it, we weren't in front of Craig. If you're looking at times maybe you should note that we set the 2nd fastest time on SS6.

Why not bring Craig into it, you were behind him on SS5, and the 4 minute dust gap you got on SS6 will give you that extra bit of time to let the dust settle, therefore you set a reasonable time given the conditions. Everyone else was in the same boat with the dust, it just upset you a little more than others. Remember the quote from the director. "we are not playing for sheep stations, just go out there and have fun". Obviously you need more space for your sheep.

Maybe after I was buckled in helmet on and all set for SS7 I should have said get stuffd to Geoff when he asked for a push to get the car going. I didn't. I got out, gave him a hand and he was off.

Whitey. You're absolutely right, we did only take 11 (or 13?) secs off you on Stage 5. After we came to a complete stop for 8 seconds at a time about 4 times.
[/B]

Join the club. But that is still only 40 secs approx, even if it did happen. I consistently took 30+ seconds off the car in front of me, SS1 being the first example and at one minute intervals that’s a huge chunk. SS8 a wrong road and a spin saw 1:30 minutes off the car in front, but I didn’t argue with them and drove to the conditions. You were running comparable times to Fiona and myself, so competition was fair.

1c. You're right, when I went up with you we did agree that it was to be one car instead of three. But later, I asked car 14 if we could go in fron t of them, to which I got "You'd make my day" as a reply, and we asked the controllie AGAIN if we could move road positions, to which he agreed. You were'nt there when I spoke to the controllie for the second time. Of course you didn't know we had permission to move further up. [/B]

So you went and asked a non existent car if you could cut in front. You asked Spac, Car 15 and Spac would surely go OK. What about enquiring with the other cars in the line to see if they had any qualms about what happened. I can’t remember being asked if it was ok.

Regardless, it seems you're out for blood. Unfortunately you'll not be getting any from me, even though I readily volunteered to go to the CoC and ASKED to be told what I had done wrong.
[/B]

What Blood and why? We beat you in a fair contest. It’s just the way you went about it at the start of SS6 that got some people riled up. I understood you could not overtake people in control without having a penalty applied, so it would have placed you farther behind. Like Mark said, the sooner people have the correct rules applied and penalties imposed the sooner people will understand and not do it. In a clubman you may get away with it, but a State, ARC, or International and the penalties will come thick and fast.

See you on the road.

Smee

[Tweety]

Meh. Seems to me that if people weren't playing for sheep stations they wouldn't be making a fuss. We ARE talking about club rallies.

Sure, like you all said, it's against the rules, but from my point of view swapping in control can often make a better rally for everyone*, particularly if a car that's seeded quite high has dropped back. Naturally people at the pointy end of the field have more issues with this than us down the back in spite of their vehement protestations that they're only out there to have fun .

If anyone driving a car that's obviously** faster than me ever asks me if they can go ahead of me by swapping in control, my answer will always be yes (assuming that we have a start control official willing to help out). It means that they don't have to sit in my dust and I don't have to worry about holding them up and spend half the stage looking in my mirrors. I have benefitted from this once myself due to a control official who took it upon himself (may not wish to be named given the way this discussion is going?) to see that Timdog and I swapped so that I could go in front and nobody used any late time.

Seriously, if everyone is in agreement, where's the problem? Yes, I do realise it holds the rally up a couple of minutes, and no I'm not advocating that everyone should be able to do it all the time (they shouldn't need to if the seeding list is in any way decent).



* Well, everyone within a few cars
** Naturally I would have to agree with them

[fro]

Originally posted by Tweety
Sure, like you all said, it's against the rules, but from my point of view swapping in control can often make a better rally for everyone*, particularly if a car that's seeded quite high has dropped back.

Agreed. I'd kinda like the rules to be changed. I mean, it's acknowledged within the NRC, but then the mechanism to do it is removed as soon as you use the ARC Regs to run an A-to-A timed event.

Surely, there has to be a way to satisfy the needs of the competitors (particularly if they are in agreement) and the rules at the same time?

[tortfeaser]

Originally posted by Karl Willett
Yep... or book in 2 minutes early and put your card on the table before theirs. Or talk them into booking in 2 minutes late and putting their card on the table after yours. Or flog their card while they're not looking and give it back to them after you've booked in... if they're that painfully slow they deserve it

Just a small thing - as Fro quoted from the Code - you'd have to book in 3 minutes late to go behind someone, because if you booked in on the same minute the start order goes on who started the previous section first.

Karl's on the job though - we need to better educate controllies. Instead of the officials licencing being about so much cr@p, why not include some actual education about rallying procedure?

And if the competitor was pulling a swifty to gain an advantage, they should be charged for conduct unbecoming or whatever it is in the NCRs.

[Raynman]

A quick question - at club level are you penalised under A to A timing for being late into control with a time penalty? (which is the usual modus operandi)


Because that may be cause of some resistance to booking in late, if you are going to get a time penalty. Short of that if someone catches me then I am happy to let them through, and I would hope that vice versa can also apply.

[tortfeaser]

No, at club and most state events there's no competitive time penalty for lateness, only loss of late time. There is still penalties for being early though.