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Old 17-08-2004, 01:55 PM   1 links from elsewhere to this Post. Click to view. #1 (permalink)
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CAMS Bulletin Clarification #2.

And you thought I'd expended my frustration last time - wrong!

The second part of the CAMS Bulletin I was questioning last time ( http://www.cams.com.au/bulletins/B04...lly%20Cars.pdf ) is about interior door trims.

They ditched the following:
Quote:
Originally Posted by TBWB
It is permitted to remove sound-proofing material from the doors, provided this does not modify the internal shape of the doors. The door trims must remain, as must all hardware and fittings. In two door cars the trim on the side panels behind the front doors and in front of the rear seat may not be removed
and replaced it with...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bulletin
It is permitted to remove sound-proofing material from the doors, provided this does not modify the shape of the doors. In the case of a two door car the trim situated beneath the rear side windows may also be removed but must be replaced with panels made from composite material, save for utes in which case such trim is not required to be replaced.

a) It is permitted to remove the trim panel from the door together with the side protection bar in order to install a side protection panel which is made from composite material [/b](See diagram 2)[/b]

b) If the side protection bars are not removed, the door panels may be made from sheet metal at least 0.5mm thick, carbon fibre at least 1mm thick, or from another solid and non combustible material at least 2mm thick. The minimum height of this panel must extend from the base of the door to to the maximum height of the door strut.
It is permitted to replace electric window winders with manual ones.
Now, I like that they're tried to clarify the door trim thing, and have (finally) recognised that newer cars have much more "sculpted" door trims and that modern roll cages make it nearly impossible for us plebs to retain the original door trims.

But I have some questions:

1. WTF is a "door strut"??? I've NEVER heard this term before. If they're going to invent or use an obscure term, a definition would go a long way...

2. Can someone please define for me, what the "rear side window" is, on a first generation RX-7, and for a second generation RX-7? What about a Toyota Sprinter? (Have a look at the pics of these cars before attempting to answer unless you're Jenny. ).

3. How big does the panel under the rear side window have to be? Is a piece the size of a business card good enough? Why not?
What's a composite? Is a piece of newspaper gaffer taped to a piece of aluminium foil enough? Why not?

4. What sound-proofing is there that will modify the internal shape of the doors? I'm not disputing that this is probably possible on a certain car, but it does sound really odd and pointless - what's "internal" any how? Are we talking about the bit that the occupants can see (the door part of the internal shape of the cockpit), or the guts of the doors that aren't visible to anyone? If it's the latter who gives a rat's proverbial what it looks like?
Why was the word "internal" removed from the new wording? This doesn't really avoid any of the questions posed in my previous paragraph, but does create some new ones (like: Is it sound-proofing if it is on the outside of the door?).

5. What is a "side protection bar"? Are we talking about the door intrusion bars that are welded inside doors, as mandated by ADRs for road rego, or what we all call "intrusion bars" in the roll-cage? I'm assuming the former, but it's hardly clear...
What if you have an old/import car without internal door bars?
How does the standard in-door intrusion bar compare to a crossed, gussetted welded-in roll-cage intrusion bar? How does a piece of 0.5mm alloy sheet compare to either?

6. I simply don't understand the requirements for the new panel size. "The minimum height of this panel must extend from the base of the door...." OK, where's the base of the door? The lowest edge that can be seen from the inside, with the door closed, or the very lowest edge of the door*? In the RX-7, these two edges differ by about 150mm... If you use the second version, then it would be a monster of a thing, and it would be (nearly) impossible to close the door, not to mention dust sealing...
And any concept of the required top edge is wasted by the phrase "door strut"... but I'll point out that Mazda RX-3s and Mazda 808s (essentially the same cars for the unwashed, non-Mazda-philes), have two different door trims - the 808 trims leave about 50mm of steel door exposed between the top of the trim and the bottom of the glass, whereas the RX-3 has more "luxurious" trim that extends all the way to the bottom of the glass. And that this difference is an Australian specification level one, rather than inherent in the difference between an 808 and an RX-3.

7. Why the use of BOTH "door trim" and "door panel". Two terms makes it sound like you're talking about two different things - so if I argue that "door panel" is the outer door skin, and that I'm allowed to replace my steel door skin with 0.5mm alloy (thereby saving a noticable amount of weight), who can tell me that I'm wrong?

Sorry for the rant, but this really ****s me. Why not use the simple, workable definition of "door trim" as used by either Improved Production (3J) or Sports Sedans (2D?), depending on what they are attempting to acheive?
The 3J rules fairly clearly state that you've gotta use standard door trims, the 2D ones say that you've gotta stop occupants from being able to stick their hands into the insides of the door (and that you must use a rigid, non-flammable materail to do it). Why make it harder and more ambiguous?

We are not a European country - our automotive culture, our available cars, our terminology, our 'typical' competitor and our technical resourses are wildly different to the European norm. Therefore, adopting FIA (European) standards ad nauseum to a national category does not, and will not work.

*I'm saying "edge" rather than "base" because base imples a broad area that supports weight... Obviously no area at the bottom of a car door supports the door's weight - so I'd argue that there is no "base" on a car door...
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Old 17-08-2004, 02:46 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Perhaps this is something you could draw Peter Lawrence's attention to? Or is this only ARCom related (IHNI)?
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Old 17-08-2004, 02:51 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Spac, it's great that you're reading the rules. The forum is a great place to vent.

Now, copy the tirade (and in fact, the one that you had previously), and send them to Peter Lawrence and Campbell Andrea.

The forum is great for discussion, but not great for action. No-one here has any regulatory power... Aim your rage somewhere where it will be heard, and there's a rough chance that it be acted upon.
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Old 17-08-2004, 03:04 PM   #4 (permalink)
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b) If the side protection bars are not removed, the door panels may be made from sheet metal at least 0.5mm thick, carbon fibre at least 1mm thick, or from another solid and non combustible material at least 2mm thick.

So they now require you (if you wish to remove your trim which was combustible) to replace it with something that is non combustible.

Combustible: Capable of igniting and burning.
n.
A substance that ignites and burns readily.

So all those people with vinyl covered masonite door trims or blow formed plastic door trims, be prepared to have to replace them with mild steel, or all alloy.....

Have an accident big enough and spray fuel or any other flammable liquid and nothing is safe....

I'll just stick with my felt covered chip board....
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Old 17-08-2004, 03:17 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Fro, as you should be aware by now, I'm using this forum as the sounding board - it IS possible that I've mis-read/mis-understood some of it, and it IS possible that I have been living under a Smee style rock, and that everybody else knows what a "door strut" is...
Rather than firing off half-artsed (like I'd ever do that...), I figure it would be good to get some feedback first. Would any proposal be complete without the feedback from Marc, Andrew, yourself and the others with the interest?

Don't worry, you know that a 500-page proposal will lob into the realm of ARCom*, sometime soon...

*[Fantasy novel narrator voice]For the realm of ARCom is a shadowy place, where mortals are not welcomed. It is a realm not of our knowing. It is a realm where stange and unusal things happen. Things beyond our understanding.[/voice]
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Old 17-08-2004, 03:37 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Okay, sorry. I then say that to my reading, you seem to be pretty close to the mark on this and the previous matter.

I can provide background on why these decisions were made via ARCom minutes, but that's no defence for why they turned out this way.

Start the submission. I'll tone it down , and then we can send it.
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Old 17-08-2004, 03:54 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Start the submission. I'll tone it down , and then we can send it.
haha...
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Old 17-08-2004, 03:59 PM   #8 (permalink)
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I still maintain that "You bunch of clueless, moronic dip****s" was fine in that context, and needed no toning down, Fro...
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Old 17-08-2004, 04:10 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Old 17-08-2004, 04:16 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spac
and that everybody else knows what a "door strut" is...
I have just taken a snap world wide poll (Google search) and the generally accepted term of a door strut is either (in order of popularity)
a) a strut which looks the same as a strut you would expect to find on a hatchback hatch only attached to a door. I can't remember seeing any on the entry doors of cars. Pervis Eureka?
b) a hinged and sometimes articulated devise attached to the door, which limits the amount the door can open. If this second definition is the one that CAMS likes then from memory these "door opening limiters" can be quite low and therefore in some cases you would only be required to replace 40% of your trim?

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Old 17-08-2004, 04:49 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by marco
and the generally excepted term


Grrr. What's wrong with having a post with only 5 characters?
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Old 17-08-2004, 04:50 PM   #12 (permalink)
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a) It is permitted to remove the trim panel from the door together with the side protection bar in order to install a side protection panel which is made from composite material (See diagram 2)

b) If the side protection bars are not removed, the door panels may be made from sheet metal at least 0.5mm thick, carbon fibre at least 1mm thick, or from another solid and non combustible material at least 2mm thick. The minimum height of this panel must extend from the base of the door to to the maximum height of the door strut.
It is permitted to replace electric window winders with manual ones.


To me it reads that a) permits you to remove the trim plus the standard ADR side protection if you replace the ADR type side protection with one that is like the one in diagram 2 (nothing about any requirement to replace the removed standard door trim) that is only required by b) when you remove the standard door trim without removing the standard ADR type side protection.
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Old 17-08-2004, 05:00 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Grrr. What's wrong with having a post with only 5 characters?
That's what I get for cutting and pasting from Word after a hasty spell check.
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Old 17-08-2004, 05:07 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Nice work with Google, Marco. I tried searching on a few forums for "door strut" but got nothing.
So I think we've "proven" that door strut means NOTHING, or possibly something that CAMS doesn't want it to mean...

I think I agree WRT your second post. Maybe.

Why couldn't they have said: "You can remove the ADR side protection and standard door trim, provided you put this honey-comb **** in instead (ref Fig #2).
Otherwise, door trims are free, but must be original, or made from non-flammable material. The purpose of the door trim is to prevent possibility of human body parts entering the internal door cavity. The replacement door trim must either cover the same area of the interior of the door as the original trim, or cover all opening in the door body.
"

It's really not as hard as they're making it, surely?

The reference to ADR type side protection is incredibly odd... I'm guessing it was a 'cut and paste' from the FIA regs - but they've forgotten about all of the pre-1976 PRC cars, and all of the jap imports... I'd speculate that if you combined these two groups of cars, they'd make up about half od the PRC fleet...
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Old 17-08-2004, 07:22 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Just on the issue of "door panel". Bill dunn mentioned that due to the unavaliability of parts they had been given dispensation to use a non-factory skin (I call it a skin) on the fiat doors provided that it weighed the same.....

Maybe they figured this is covered by Min. Weights? If so you gain an advantage by lightening the car the using ideally placed ballast.

Im out of my depth and I dont have the time to read myself into shallower waters. So....

Go getum Spac!
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