Service parks

[Factor]

As indicated after Bega and the Bay, I wanted to open a discussion re service parks. A relatively recent phenomenon at Club/ Sate level rallying I think the minuses outweigh the pluses. I also think there are more options that just (a) book in service park and no service elsewhere, and (b) service anywhere you like.

1. Service park and no other service locations.
Problem with this is a relatively minor problem can ruin your whole rally, eg two flat tyres and that’s it its all over (presuming you only carry one spare). If the service park – and no other service – is what CoCs are going to do then they should at least consider implementing the rejoin regulation (Bulletin 05/039). As CRO in Rally Q this year I used it for the QRC cars and it worked pretty well and allowed people who otherwise had blown their rally to at least have some fun. Indeed the bulletin should be included in series regs. Or at least allow outside assistance to the extent of delivery of equipment.

Other problem is the book in book out thing. I know some say that booking in and out is good as it ensures fairness in terms of service time, but on the down side it creates entry and exit problems (eg Bega) and also requires more service crew. At the bay the service time allowed was pretty good but Bega was pretty tight, particularly when mounting lights etc. I see no problem with not booking in/out – crews are still required not to speed to get there so that shouldn’t be an issue.

2. Service where you like

This can have an impact in terms of “clogging up areas” and requiring teams to have a service crew/vehicle capable of getting from one spot to another. That can be ameliorated in part at least by banning certain roads for service – eg Bega. What it does though is give the crew the best chance of continuing the event.

Preferred solution:

For me at least the preference is to plan the event to allow central service for those who need that, but also allow other service, also implement the rejoin regulation as a matter of course.

I welcome your comments.

[Ric Cary]

Personally I think centralized service is OK. but the book in book out thing is just garbage its a waste of everyones time including the poor bunny at the control if we were running under road time penalties I guess you would have to have the Bin B out but without the penalties its just a J Arthur.

[Bogan]

Originally Posted by Factor

Other problem is the book in book out thing... ...but on the down side it creates entry and exit problems (eg Bega) and also requires more service crew.

I agree wholeheartedly with the entry and exit view, and Mr Roser comma G fullstop acknowledges that. He was going to get the firies to remove part of the fence this year apparently but it didn't happen, maybe next year. Oberon 2004 was the same, two different lines of crews waiting to book into service after two different stages, all at the one control from memory. Nightmare stuff.

I don't follow your thoughts about needing more service crew if you book in and out? Can you tell us what you're on about? Why do you need more? Central service book in and out realistically you could do it yourself if you can get all your stuff to the service point.

T.

[Ian Bigg]

I agree the rejoin thing needs to be included, the NSW Rally Panel is drafting up some 'standard' supp regs to allow its use for any event that wants to - rather than having to apply to ARCom for each event ...

Fairly safe to say I believe the single service park is here to stay, except for places like the current Bega layout where you really need 2 ... Crews who are 'sharing' service crew and are separated by the dreaded seeding like it, as an organiser I like it, including the book in/out thing as it means I can tell the authorities that someone running late leaving service (for example) has no reason to speed to the next point as they have exactly the same time to get there as everyone else, they have already used the late time ... and it is 'non recoverable'.

The idea of no service outside is partly tied to that idea as well - no book out on time, meet service crew 500m up road, fix rest of problems, 'rush' to next control ... also means that we don't have service vehicles driving around the countryside too much (I'm told everyone was very well behaved at the Supplementary refuel in the Bay - thank you!).

For State level events next year in NSW expect to see the dreaded 5 seconds per minute late implemented as part of the standard conditions ... accompanied by an expectation that organisers will allow sufficient service time (including the control procedures) and that no A-A average speed will exceed 60km/h (except again in places like Bega where the long transports to/from the south would be expected to use a slightly higher average ..)

[Factor]

Originally Posted by Bogan

I don't follow your thoughts about needing more service crew if you book in and out? Can you tell us what you're on about? Why do you need more? Central service book in and out realistically you could do it yourself if you can get all your stuff to the service point.

T.

Yeah - a bit obtuse I will grant you. What I should have said was that if service times are short then more people are required to do the same work in less time. I think that is what I was trying to say, but I will acknowledge that its probably not a huge deal.

[Factor]

Originally Posted by Ian Bigg

Fairly safe to say I believe the single service park is here to stay, except for places like the current Bega layout where you really need 2 ... Crews who are 'sharing' service crew and are separated by the dreaded seeding like it, as an organiser I like it, including the book in/out thing as it means I can tell the authorities that someone running late leaving service (for example) has no reason to speed to the next point as they have exactly the same time to get there as everyone else, they have already used the late time ... and it is 'non recoverable'.

The idea of no service outside is partly tied to that idea as well - no book out on time, meet service crew 500m up road, fix rest of problems, 'rush' to next control ... also means that we don't have service vehicles driving around the countryside too much (I'm told everyone was very well behaved at the Supplementary refuel in the Bay - thank you!).

..)

I t pleasing to see responses already. The concept that no outside service and book in and book out means that no one will speed to allow service time is flawed. e.g. I have 3 things wrong - we fix two at service - obviously the ones I need help with, then load up the car with the bits to fix number three - book out on time and drive like a cut cat to fix #3 outside the next control - I get a few extra minutes in the bank and I am able to tell my driver to the second how much time he has left to fix it ( e.g. it might be a replacement of a terratrip probe) all legal (cept for the speeing).

I know that might be a slightly outlandish example, but I think its important to note that book in and out centralised service will not necessarilly take away the usefulness of speeding.

I still also am concerned as to why we would want to see a person who gets the two flats tossed out of the rally.

As for people sharing service crew - fine - as I said have central service park - but allow some eternal service or at least external provision of bits.

[Ian Bigg]

Hmmm .... I can see some major exercises in semantics coming along ... suggestions on how to decide what is OK vs what defeats the whole idea are welcome ...

I am all for ways that allow us to keep as many people in a rally as possible - but without the 'chase cars', blocked transport routes, and other various issues that unlimited service access, or even restricting some roads, seem to give rise to.

These days the publics perception of our sport is becoming more and more critical and seeing lines of trucks and cars along the side of a road, or in front of their house / driveway / favourite shop can definitely be an issue.

[Bogan]

Originally Posted by Factor

I still also am concerned as to why we would want to see a person who gets the two flats tossed out of the rally.

Here's where I probably overstep the mark and apply "old school" thinking from my definitely "new school" arrival.

Originally Posted by StarMart regs.

The event is a competitive event, designed to test the skills of the driver and codriver, and the reliability and mechanical condition of the competing vehicles.

Unless they happen at the same time, get one flat and be somehow a little careful until the next service, or take your medicine?

T.

[Ric Cary]

Um Ian,

Centralised service and book in book out could actually be seen to encourage speeding!! If for instance you have a problem and the required parts are at service nothing stops you from proceeding to service " in your own time" driving straight in fixing the problem and then going like stink to the next control. the supp regs don't say you can "only " service at your designated time only that you can only service at the designated place which with a "chase car " service anywhere type rule would be eliminated

[Factor]

Originally Posted by Bogan

Here's where I probably overstep the mark and apply "old school" thinking from my definitely "new school" arrival.

Unless they happen at the same time, get one flat and be somehow a little careful until the next service, or take your medicine?

T.

Basically agree Tony. I note how few flats we get for example (thats done it - now we will get heaps) because JW tries to drive to avoid them - a little slower in times but no looss of time due to flats. But having said that - I am still concerned about keeping the young punter in the gemini in the rally when the two flats thing happens. As I said, at least the rejoing rule should apply.

[Factor]

Originally Posted by Ian Bigg

Hmmm .... I can see some major exercises in semantics coming along ... suggestions on how to decide what is OK vs what defeats the whole idea are welcome ...

I am all for ways that allow us to keep as many people in a rally as possible - but without the 'chase cars', blocked transport routes, and other various issues that unlimited service access, or even restricting some roads, seem to give rise to.

These days the publics perception of our sport is becoming more and more critical and seeing lines of trucks and cars along the side of a road, or in front of their house / driveway / favourite shop can definitely be an issue.

Agree with the risk issue that you are trying to address but not sure that it is a big issue. In short I suspect that if you allowed central and chase service you wouldnt actually get that many chasing. But that is of course a guess. Maybe we could ask the entratnts from the Bay how many would have sent a chase vehicle if it was alloed in addition to the central service.

And in any event this still doesnt stop chase cars, just stops those cars being involved in service. For example we could send someone around to controls to check times etc.

I keep coming back to the central theme - its about keeping competitors in the event particularly at the blunt end of the field. Maybe we could provide greater freedom for non 4wd cars (but not unreasonably the 4wd mob would get cranky) or for Novice and or clubman (but that has managerial control issues eg cars would have to have a big novice sticker or similar)

As I said at the start, I am hoping to stimulate positive discussion and explore more opportunities.

[Bogan]

I am reasonably happy with central service parks and the like, my only suggestion (and it's happened at Oberon as well as Bega, and to a lesser extent Batemans) for improvement would be to have a "drive through" service park where most of the traffic is one way. At Bega not only did we have two lines of cars waiting to get in, there were also cars coming out (presumaby two lots as well). Oberon was the same, and that park definitely has the ability to have an entry or exit control at the other end of the park. Make them more like RoC, that was a good setup .

Traffic management is an area to look at, if it's easier to get into and out of the service park then you can make better use of the service time you're given if you do have to book in and out.

T.

[Ian Bigg]

Ric, your example is correct, although with centralised service most events tend to be based on a series of 'loops' so you are usually a fair way away from the service park ... and you really don't want to attract the attention of the local constabulary ... as Peter Wallace said at The Bay, your wallet will bleed.

One of the issues that competitors keep raising is costs and I see the centralised service as contributing to keeping costs down ... chase vehicles, packing up, moving, unpacking, packing up, moving, unpacking, all takes time fuel and people (costs) for all those involved.

How does the Dunlop truck, for example, cope with having three service points 30 or 40km apart and still being around to provide 'service' to people half way down the field.

At the Bay with 67 starters and, in the afternoon, 3 minute gaps that is over 3 hours of service - with maybe two hours of 'stages' between service - so the front end of the field is at sevice location 'C' while the second half of the field are still at 'B' ... 2 trucks? no tyre service for lower half of the field (who may well need to buy a replacement suddenly after getting a puncture but don't normally have a few 'spare' new tyres sitting around on spare rims)? I don't pretend to know the answers to this and many many other conundrums ....

The panel is looking at having some differences in the rules between State / Clubman / Novice events (which we are planning will NOT be combined together in 2006) and this may be an area where we can have 'horses for courses' ...
The question is do we make the rules 'easier' for Novice / Clubman (where the cost issues etc seem to be more critical) or are they the area that should be more restricted and have the State level events be based on less restrictions?

The issue of traffic management certainly needs to be considered by organisers - I know the Bay layout sort of worked but it could have been a lot better and will be looked at for next year (along with a long list of other 'could be done better' issues - like the Starters rally)

[Miss]

Just my 2c...

Bega was a total shambles, everyone knows it, but here's a couple more hypothetical* cranky competitor stories:

Competitor K is seeded at the back of a huge field and two and a half hours after car 1 has left she goes on her merry way. Her service crew head to the designated service park and since the vast majority of service crews are already there they have a great deal of trouble finding a space to set up that isn't in everyone else's way and isn't on too steep a slope. They're left with very few options, and to top it all off the piece of area they do take over is a third of the size of what the top dozen teams have taken, since they determined that it would be necessary for their truck, tent, two crew transport vehicles, assorted spares and chairs/BBQ equipment ALL need to be in the service park. To add injury to insult, those same top crews' service dudes are shooting Comp K's service crews dirty looks cause the top crew now don't have a nice sweeping entrance to get into their pop-top tent.

Competitor P waits for bluddy ages to get into the park and when he finally does his 10 minutes of service are now actually 8.5 as he has to go all the way up the other end of the service park. The next time he books into service the one road he can use to get to where his stuff is is blocked by a tyre truck trying to get out. His 8.5mins of service are now looking more like 6 or 7 unless he drives through another crew's service area, which he does since the tyre truck is attempting a three-point turn in front of him. In his now 7 mins of service he has to put lights on, change the rears, check all the suspicious bits (hey, hypothetically it's a Datsun) and grab something to eat. What do you think get's sacrificed? Yeah, the food. You know, the stuff that you need to get energy from? The stuff that stops you from falling asleep at the wheel on the final transport after a full day's rallying? Glad Competitor P is hypothetical and I wasn't his hypothetical nav...


If we're looking at how effective central service parks are, then I'm all for it just as long as Competitor K's rally doesn't get dulled by the poor "treatment" of their service area and crew and Competitor P doesn't have to trade their own limited service time for, again, a cramped and poorly managed service area.

I thought the Bay service park was well laid out, possibly due to the fact that many crews had already been there the prievious year and knew to spread out along the oval. I didn't see any problems with the one entrance/exit as there was plenty of space to line up but I do like the "one-way traffic" idea, just as long as it doesn't create a whole new traffic/space problem...

*Aren't actually hypothetical

[Ric Cary]

Originally Posted by Ian Bigg

One of the issues that competitors keep raising is costs and I see the centralised service as contributing to keeping costs down ... chase vehicles, packing up, moving, unpacking, packing up, moving, unpacking, all takes time fuel and people (costs) for all those involved.

Ian cost containment is all well and good but in the greater scheme of things once your service crew is in place another 30 or 40 litres of fuel to move them from place to place is niether here nor there as a reason

Originally Posted by Ian Bigg

How does the Dunlop truck, for example, cope with having three service points 30 or 40km apart and still being around to provide 'service' to people half way down the field.

The same way they have allways done its never been a problem!!!

Please keep in mind we are all doing this for fun if we wanted to run GARC with all its foibles we would.As far as I know there is only one event in the state that offers anything like reasonable prize money that would allow a team to recoup a little more than the entry fee. So lets not start sticking more rules and regs up the poor competitors wazoo's under the banner of cost constraints.


Seeing as you have brought up Cost constraints as a reason for centralized service can you also explain the anomalies in State Chamionship level entry fees as displayed below from the next

2 day pacenoted SARC round

132 competitive kms over 14 special stages (30% longer than 2004!)


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Fully pacenoted - pacenoting either Sunday 4th September or Friday 9th September

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Scrutiny and documentation Thursday 8th September 1900hrs, Carline Mufflers Marion

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Car 1 starts 1200hrs Saturday 10th September - finish approx 2011hrs

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Standard entry fee $380 SARC Registered - $430 not registered ($460 after August 22nd)

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Standard Entries close August 22nd (final entries close August 29th)

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Camping available (no electricity) at Robertstown Oval Friday and Saturday night

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being a 2 day event surely there would be more insurance and forestry fees by comparison to our 1 day format yet a substantial saving how does that work??? It also with interest that I note that SARC events have an additional $25.00 levy per entry for " Road damage" and "promotion"