Thoughts on Tarmac Rallying?

[Spac]

Question relates to Tarmac Rallies as they currently stand (Targa Tas, East Coast Targa, etc), and not to any possible FNS tarmac event or possible tar ARC round.
Question also assumes you're already involved in Gravel Rallying (on any level, including non-competitive).

Answers should not ignore the possible/potential/expected/actual impact on gravel rallying, in terms of police, public, CAMS and insurance influences.

Think about the proven record of big accidents and serious/fatal injuries of tar vs gravel, whether you think the competitors in tarmac rallies are similar to those in gravel rallies, and all the rest.

[BEN]

One of the guys here at work was doing some officialing this year at a certain tarmac event in NSW which im sure we all know of, was telling me after the event that there were 3 major accidents on a particular stage after the stage end time board !!

need i say anymore,

Ben.

[Kagan]

Spac made an intersting comment regarding ARC tarmac event. When will we get one??? The way i see it, if Australian Ralling wants another WRC driver, and potential world champ, we need to look at giving drivers a chance to experience what they would in the WRC. O.K. snow maybe a little tough, but hey there is always Tassie, but look at Chris, re Monte Carlo (not even driving, they said they didn't want to put him on tar the first time, or something like that) and then not having much fun in Germany. We need to give our guys a chance to experience what it is like!!!

Oh and yeah the OTHER tar rallies, they are a quick way to send the entire sport of rally to the history books!!!

[MichaelF]

Forgive my ignorance here but exactly what are the key differences in the regulations for the two and is this the reason why most gravel folks have issues with tarmac rallies?

My understanding is that for tarmac rallies the licencing and safety regulations are a lot easier than for gravel events. More in line with motorkhanas and supersprints. The result is once in a blue moon gentlemen racers get into their hi-po cars without the protection of things like roll cages.

[bob moore]

Originally Posted by Spac

Question relates ..... not to any possible FNS tarmac event.

Why not? That scares the hell out of me, too!

Particularly after seeing the standard of some cars accepted for the last FNS. (Now I'm in trouble ..........!)

[Paul]

Mr S. I would have to agree with Bob on this, in that why are you not adding FNS into the mix.

Given that the FNS could and probably would fall into the same traps as other tarmac events, nothing against Tort or Swill.

The tar boys go through the same checks as you guys do in the gravel.

The difference is car prep, and that they "the tar boys" have a lot more dollars to spend on their cars, hence Bob's statement.


MichaelF All the rookies for the NSW event had to go through a training session at Eastern Creek before entering the event. Plus the licencing and regulations ARE very similar to a normal rally.
Have a look at the current one for this year online at one of the Tarmac websites.

[Annatastic]

Tarmac rallying is an oxymoron.

[tortfeaser]

Originally Posted by bob moore

Particularly after seeing the standard of some cars accepted for the last FNS. (Now I'm in trouble ..........!)

Yes, yes you are. Justify your position with examples, please. All cars were checked for compliance with the regs (note Sched R only) by accredited scrutineers and passed.

As for an FNS tar event, we'd avoid what I see as the core problems of tarmac rallying. Those are that crews are inexperienced with the rules of rallying and perceive the sport as an extension of circuit racing, with all the expectations of safety that that sport has. Also that we'd select roads carefully and prepare them appropriately to avoid the very high speed sections of other events.

I'd propose that FNS3 - Tarmax (name TBC as all this stuff is fanciful anyway) be limited to crews that have competed in at least one multiclub/state level gravel rally in the last year. I'm not sure about limiting the event to PRC cars only - I'd like to see a Lambo in an FNS, one of my best motorsport memories is the Murcielago in the rain down Conrod. But I want to avoid having the clowns that do two events a year and don't have a clue what a time control is.

We're getting ahead of ourselves anyway, given the tarmac rally standing regs.

[Spac]

With regard to the comments from Bob M and Papa T, I specifically wanted to exclude "gravel rallies on tar" (as a Tar FNS or a Tar ARC would be) because they are/would be a different thing to the current Tarmac Rallies. Different cars, different competitors, and all the rest.

I recognise that there may be valid concerns about such events, but those concerns are not the topic of this thread/poll, and they relate to a hypothetical event only, rather than a number of actual events.

Michael, Yeah, that's basically right. The licencing is essentially the same as for Gravel Rallying, but it is (considered to be) less relevant, and Tarmac rallies have far more consistant high speeds (ref: Many previous comments about non-progressive limits of traction, sizes of impact, etc).

[Kagan]

Tort

Buy limiting it to PRC cars you would get rid of the people who are not experienced to a degree anyway (so Mr Rich in his $100,000 sports car can't turn up and potentially do what we are all concerned about.

That and it would probably be more fun (or competetive) if everyone was running gravel spec rally cars on tar, rather than one or to in circuit cars and god knows what else.

Still it would be cool to see a Ferrari or Lambo at the start line to the stage!!!!

[fro]

Also factoring into the equation that the vehicle regulations for Tarmac Rallies are significantly different.

The PRC/Group N Regulations which most gravel rallies run under put significant limitations on the modifications allowed to vehicles, and through that, limit the speeds achievable.

Tarmac Rally vehicle regulations are in a state of flux, with new regulations under draft currently. That notwithstanding, they allow a much greater scope for modification.

Even with vehicles that would appear to be similar (Group N WRX STi vs "TarRally" WRX STi), things such as turbo restrictors which are required for gravel rallying are not required for tarmac rallying.

When called on for submissions on the draft tarmac rally regulations, I posed the question why tarmac rallyists couldn't just use the PRC regulations? Surely what's good for the goos, is good for the gander? Of course, as with many things I send to people, they appeared to disappear into the ether, as I recieved nil response.

[fro]

Oh, and I should also add:

The other consideration is the roads that we use for tarmac rallying. We should get Waggy to bring in the in-car from the UK "tarmac" rallies that he did, and watch some in-car of the French National Championship, and other European tarmac rallies. They (the Europeans) are using roads that have features that concern me (walls, cliffs, etc), but the nature of the roads keeps the average speeds well below the 132km/h FIA cut-off.

Even in Tas, keeping average speeds below the FIA cut-off seems to be moderately difficult. At ECT, to do it they have had to use fudges over the years (Stop-Go's, Chicanes and Restricted Speed Zones) to reduce the average speed, and even then, have had to nullify stages for exceeding the FIA cut-off.

Oh, and I should point out that the FIA cut-off applies if the average speed for the stage for any competitor is over 132km/h. So even if only the "winning" car exceeds 132km/h averages speed, the stage is neutralised.*

* - Or at least, that's how it was explained to me.

[Paul]

Originally Posted by Annatastic

Tarmac rallying is an oxymoron.

So can someone please explain to me the difference between a WRC rally at Monte which has been around longer than Bob has and a normal gravel rally or have I missed something?

Sorry Bob your older than me.

[Damo]

I’d be interested to hear from those that did the tar stage in the Back in Black – How much ‘fun’ was it, compared to a dirt stage?

A couple of factors make me wonder if a full tarmac rally in a entry level, dirt-spec car would be that exciting to do?
*A locker & lots of castor means my car is a bit of a pig to drive on tar at legal sorts of speeds (might be a bit better at speed though?).
* The only tyres I’d be using on tar stages would be some old cast offs or odds & ends sitting in the back of the shed, I don’t think I’d be spending extra money on good road-spec, or semi-slick type tyres for a once off event.
* I’d be pretty wary of sticking it into something at speed; given the tendency for tar to not give you a whole lot of ‘notice’ before everything lets go (compared to dirt, where I reckon it’s a bit easier to gauge the limits of adhesion).

Whilst I’d quite like to have a crack at a Supersprint type thing at Wakefield, I guess I’m not positive a full tarmac style rally grabs me that much...
(That said, it is tops that Marc & Swill are looking into providing different types of events!)

Thoughts anyone?

[Kagan]

Paul the are talking about the East Coast Targa/ Targa Tasmania type events.

Its to do with the Gentelman with little skills driving huge powered cars and killing themselves, therefore making the insurance and risk problems to great to, and the concern is that this will begin to effect the gravel rallying, where vehical eligability is a lot stricter.

WRC tarmac events, and even the possability of an ARC Tarmac event are a different kettle of fish, with highly skilled drivers driving properly prepared cars which have power restrictions.