Possible new event

[fro]

Originally posted by Daniel
Who was having a go? not me, I was curious. Still am as a mater of fact - why don't you belive in series? (being on the commitee and all )

Sorry, I'm only up to my second coffee for the day, and am biting in all sorts of directions. I can't quantify why I don't want it as part of a series. I guess I see people building up so much stress about how "this result" affects their standing in the series. I'd much rather see a relaxed, casual, social event. That's part of the reason that I like the idea of the Dell. More about the basics of rallying, less about trying to accumulate points for some trophy that 98% of the world doesn't care about.

I still think the series is a good idea, but it sometimes affects the attitude people have. Rallying should be about having fun, not about collecting points...and I'm not sure how much longer I'll be involved with the committee...

Originally posted by Daniel
...the whole event isn't going to be run on goat tracks - just roads that are harder to read... [there may be a few goat tracks though just to upset Spac ] )

Anything that upsets Spac has to be good... Although you know that it will just perpetuate the legend of the "Light Car Club" rally...

[TKM]

I competed in a LCCC event in 1994 that had a balloted start, it was a nightmare. The guy that was dead last on the seeding list at the time (Mark Banyard!!!) drew car 3. The first stage was 30+ kms and by the end of it MB had a queue of cars behind him (of which I was one) in blinding dust, was not happy Jan!!!!

[Daniel]

Originally posted by fro
Although you know that it will just perpetuate the legend of the "Light Car Club" rally...

AND?

[Jimbo]

Spac i like the concept.

I myself as a new competitor, hopefully next year, know that i won't be able to pull top results (For my ability) in my first couple of rallies. But i also know that getting experience is one of the most important elements (apart from just having fun..) in rallying. I would like to more of these "Dell" events, if not for beginners, but for people who just want to enjoy and gain more road time. That way, when they go to a bigger event, like the "ACT Series", they have a least a better idear on their abbillites and limits, if that all makes sense

I'd like to see about 4 or 5 none series events - counting towards nothing but a rally and experience, with the current field of Series events possibly increased. But hey, that's just my opinon

Oh, Spac, if you need a hand, give us a yell. More than happy to help out!

Jimbo

[Daniel]

Jimbo - I can see your point, but you can run any event without worrying about the 'series', but with the lack of events in Canberra its a shame to see events here not counting for the ACT series while events like Bega, Bathurst, Ulladulla and Narooma do.

[Spac]

Somehow managed to stir up some totally unexpected crap here, but getting back to the point...

MY original intention was something along the lines of making up one 15km or so stage around Bluetts, and running it 4 times. This is how the fabled Jerawangla 2000 was run, and it was brilliant. I am a little sceptical of the whole "Bluetts = waste of time" mantra... I mean look at last year - it was THE MOST USED FOREST - Pegasus, NatCap, Wizard, and (I believe) RoC.... And yet it has this aura of being "unusable"... with nothing more than snippets of gossip to back up the myth... I had heard a very similar story to what SIR LC just said through a mutual mate of ours, so unless someone wants to tell me some cold hard facts, I am reluctant to write it off as an option.

So, the jury is still out on that matter, but I am glad to see there is some support for the idea. I don't want it as part of any series, just a genuine club event with a little hassle as possible. Having said that, I do like the idea of a mini-series, but PERSONALLY, I'd like the over-all prize winner to be drawn out of a hat - a free entry to NatCap for someone who started all events in the series, or something like that.

Costs? A major part of Mark and my ideas involved making all info as available as possible... transparency, if you like. I know ACT forests charge us a lot of money, but Ulladulla Rally has made a _stack_ of money every year I know of, with 120kms competitive and a ~$250 entry... Why is it that nobody in rallying wants to talk about the REAL costs involved with running an event? Why the mystery? The ONLY info ANYONE has ever offered in terms of what's really involved in running an event was one 5 minute phone call to Matt D during Roc (Bad timing on my part!), and yet directors all complain that no-one wants to run events... who's ever going to step up to the plate when its all so shrouded in secrecy? Again, I am open to be corrected, but until I see some cold, hard facts, I am skeptical...

Once again, over to you....

[tortfeaser]

Congrats to Spac for putting his hand up - it really isn't difficult to run an event, just time consuming. As has been said several times in this post, there are several people all too willing to help out potential event organisers. I'm one of them, give me a call.

On Spac's questions:

A - Location. Central servicing is good, that's why Uriarra is used so often. I'd like to compete on varied roads, so if the event format can stand it, why not try places other than Uriarra. If you can manage resident's concerns I think an event with servicing at Castrol Corner and using Greenhills, Bluetts and Bobs would be great.

B - Formats. Using roads more than once is good - it makes finding resources easy (less volunteers and stage commanders). Reversing stage direction is hard, you need to set up the stage twice meaning you can probably only do it for first and last stage. You could mix and match controls if the itinerary suits - as the DELL does - start SS1 is stop SS6.

C - Prizes. I like the idea of rewarding a good performance, and having the possibility of getting a free entry to the event if you do well. That's why the DELL has prize money. If you win, you could just about cover your costs for entry & fuel. You could reduce this cost, but I think finding a sponsor for prizes & trophies is a better option.

D - Road book. I dislike the idea of an emailed road book. While it would reduce costs, it is not a safe practice. Producing a road book for each competitor and having the competitor sign a declaration about getting the book and its contents is all about meeting an organisers duty of care to the competitors. Having a 'print your own' roadbook leaves the organiser open to concerns about not having met their duty of care. Door plates are optional though, and cost more than a road book. Get rid of door plates in preference to getting rid of a supplied road book

E - Competitor numbers. Generally, the more competitors, the cheaper the event. But I do like smaller events focussing on particular competitors (novices, female crews for example). The latter gives the crew a better chance to be competitive outright, and makes for more friendly events.

F - Anything else. Others in the thread have considered whether a smaller/shorter event should be part of the ACT series. I say yes - I can see no reasonable impediment to a short event being part of a series (maybe worth 50% points) as well as long events. As much as I have reservations about taxi racing, I like that there are different style events in the series (sprints, enduros). I would like the ACT series to include several different event styles (khanacross, rallysprint, sprint rally <100km comp., state rallies - Bay/Bega, Natcap).

I was very keen to document the entire process heavily so once we had organised it, next time we could give some one else a folder with the entire rally plan, costs and contacts numbers in it and they could run the rally with a minimum amount of fuss.

Several people have mentioned generic paperwork. This already exists - the DELL has produced a lot of paperwork for event approvals etc, all that would be required to run an event would be to change the event logo and dates. Road books need not be a lot of pain - you can cut and paste from other's events (you use Excel to build a road book). I intend (after the DELL) to produce a CD with model paperwork and other stuff for potential event organisers, until then, see me and I will email it.

I also think the Rally Organisers Manual is one of the best ideas to come from this forum. If it were as simple as doing what the folder says, I'd consider running an event myself.

It is as simple as that. There is a CAMS organisers manual, a set of paperwork suitable for ACT events, and a knowledge base of previous event organisers willing to help. When can I expect your call?

Not that it matters, but we were going to try and run it as an LCCC event as ... we may be able to control it our way a bit more (sorry about the blatant honesty)

WTF? As Clerk of Course (for a BMSC promoted event) have total control over my event - I am the one that reports to CAMS, the CAMS checker and area coordinator and the stewards, I am the one who will be brought before any stewards inquiry at the event of a problem, I will be the one before the civil courts if someone decides to sue. The event relies on the BMSC for $$$ and the BMSC takes the financial risk. The event is charged for hire of BMSC clocks, radios, club car, FIV gear etc as a way of ensuring the upkeep and replacement of these resources. As far as the DELL is concerned, the BMSC is the bank, the name on the CAMS application, and the supplier of gear. Everything to do with event control is done by the volunteers for the event -for the DELL, this (apart from the CAMS appointed officials) is me, Matt Dyne and the stage commanders and road crews. (Thanks to them all.)

It makes me wonder why Rally events like the Dell are still up there in price???

See another thread I'll post in a minute on costs. As Matt has pointed out, it would be impossible to run an event for anything less than $150 per car. Costs over $160 per car provide for added value to competitors.

[Swill]

The Jerawangla rallys were good things by all accounts and running a similar thing in the ACT is a good idea. I also agree that theres a hole heap of myths about Bluetts, But I dont think that you will be able to run a rally as cheap as you think, espeacially since CAMS has just put up the fee's (again!) Although saying that it wasnt all that long ago I was doing rallys sprints with the Wagga club for around the $100 mark, but non of them had to contest with ACT forests. Maybe you should be looking for a NSW forest close to town like Talaganga (the forest used in the Stalmat(?)) or something like that. If you do decide on ACT why Bluetts anyway? theres better forest out there in my view. 8)

Spac if you do decide to get it off the ground, count me in with either an entry or a helping hand.

[Spac]

Bluetts was singled out for a number of reasons:

*Close to town. (no biggie for competitors, but has some spectator value).

*Apparently needs SFA road closures.

*Has the top paddock for the (centralised) service area.

*I like it.

But, there's no NEED for it to be there - the plan is highly flexible...

And as to prices... yeah, doing battle with CAMS' "new improved" fee structure means that it probably will be more expensive than we're used to, but I still want it to be cheap in the big scheme of things. To be perfectly honest, as a competitor, I'd prefer to do something like the Wizard at $240 for 120kms, than the Dell at $185 for 80kms (all prices quoted in 2001 dollars).

I also want to look into what the bike guys do - they were screaming blue murder when their entire fees went up to (wait for it) $75 for an state round enduro... while we're "happily" shelling out $200+++++++.... I would have imagined that the bike guys would be considered a higher insurance risk than us?

[Swill]

I also want to look into what the bike guys do

Horses for courses Spac, you'll notice that theres no enduro's held in the ACT. CAMS and MA are very different, bikes do stuff all damage to the roads, quite a high percentage of enduro's are held on private property. etc, etc, etc And insurance has hit them big time since September 11.......

[Spac]

So, can ANYONE explain to me how someone flying a plane into a building on the other side of the world makes me riding my motorbike, or driving my rally car, suddenly become more dangerous?!

[TKM]

you'll notice that theres no enduro's held in the ACT.

Actually they do hold enduros in the ACT, don't think they are State Championship rounds though.

[Daniel]

Originally posted by YRALLY
bikes do stuff all damage to the roads

hmmm I wouldn't have thought there would ba a lot of difference there - particularly on soft roads.

Spac - your no more of a danger (that'd be hard in your case )- just that insurance companies have to rebuild their capital after having to shell out a ****load of their folding stuff