Dust-gapping (was: 2006 NSW Documentation)

[Bogan]

Lizzy you have an opinion and I have an opinion and they're different, I can live with that.

I'm just sick of all the pricks who think that event directors are encouraging dust gapping by use of late time just because there's no road penalty imposed for using late time.

Maybe they are, I've never been an event director or even asked one why they do what they do with their regs., but there's an easy way to stamp it out.

Like I said, if they're using late time to repair the car and stay in the event then maybe a 10 second penalty is a molehill compared to the mountain of time they lost in the preceeding stage because they only had 2nd and 4th or something like that.

That's one of the things I like about the two sports I play most of, rallying and golf. I play to mostly the same rules as the people who are the best in the world at them.

My opinion is leave road penalties there for use of late time.

People can disagree with me all they like but you need to accept that you won't change my mind no matter how good your argument is.

T.

[fro]

Bogan,

A 10 second penalty is a dis-incentive, but it's not going to stop dust-gapping. Aside from the fact that recent "supposed" dust-gapping has happened in a way that has no relation to late time, a 10 second penalty is minimal compared to the potential to make up time.

I know that I have contemplated dust-gapping on several occasions, not for some competitive advantage, but to make my own rally more enjoyable. There's provision for it in the mechanics of the rules, why should I not take advantage of them?

[Bogan]

Originally Posted by fro

There's provision for it in the mechanics of the rules, why should I not take advantage of them?

In my opinion "the mechanics of the rules" are not always consistent with "the spirit of rallying".



T.

[rowdytoot]

should I get out my microscope and go looking for the tiny sheepstation you're playing for Tony??

geez dude Chill

Rowds

[Ben Wilson]

Originally Posted by Bogan

In my opinion "the mechanics of the rules" are not always consistent with "the spirit of rallying".

I always thought the 'spirit of rallying' was to go out and have fun?

[fro]

Originally Posted by Bogan

In my opinion "the mechanics of the rules" are not always consistent with "the spirit of rallying".

As you said above, you're entitled to your opinion, I'm entitled to mine.

I understand your hatred of dust-gappers, but there are times and places where it is the sensible option.

Particularly as the mechanics of the rules don't allow for swapping in control, either... see http://www.bmsc.com.au/forums/showthread.php?t=3682.

[Spac]

I don't understand why people are so vehemently against 'legitimate' dust-gapping (IE: the use of late time). If people cop a time penalty for using up late time to obtain a dust gap, does that still offend?
There are a couple of times where I've worn a time penalty in order to get a gap, and plenty more where I should have done so.
Hell, there are times where a minute penalty for a minute's late time wouldn't have been enough to stop me taking a dust gap - simply because taking a dust gap means that the following stage can be driven so much more safely and so much more enjoyably. And the stage time with penalty included, would probably be the same as the time without the dust gap...

And what sort of emotive clap-trap is "the spirit of rallying"? The sport is so diverse and fragmented, across TAs, TREs, Rallysprints, FNSes, State rounds, pace-noted events and the ARC/WRC, that glib statements like that mean less than nothing.
The one universal is the people are supposed to be doing it for fun - if it aint fun then it aint worth doing...
If taking a dust gap increases the fun quotient, then bring it on.

[Mike Cherry]

Booking in late is an issue for each individual team.
The Organisers have two effective tools at hand, the time penalty that can be applied in such an instance, and regular and effective re-groups of the field.
If there were a re-group every 2 or 3 stages, then you could be looking at 30 or 40 seconds penalty for the event in order to maintain your dust gap.
A mini re-group can also be conducted at any Time Control as well.
A provisional start time is exactly that, provisional.

[TKM]

As Lizzie quoted before the thread split:

Down the field, particularly with novices and clubmans out for a jolly good time, dust gapping isn't so much the issue

I agree, in fact sometimes it has to do with poor seeding. Case in point was Bega this year. We were 2 minutes (well a minute actually, but that's another story) late into the regroup after the shire stages, as a result, the car behind us, got reshuffled to the car infront of us. Being a Gemini, I was a little concerned, but some of those guys pedal quite hard and not having paid a great deal of attention to their time I figured, so be it. However, he was more concerned about me catching him that I was, and at the next time control, he and Mel managed to convince the officials to swap us in control without penalty (although they were fully expecting Graham to give them a late penalty when the results were done). In the end, it’s probably a good job that we did, as while we didn’t catch him, we did take a minute off them in that stage and 1:30 off them in each of the next 2 stages, so we would have been getting a far bit of dust (the last 2 stages in particular) which would have put us at a definitely disadvantage.

My point being, MORE ATTENTION NEEDS TO BE PAID TO SEEDING.


Besides Tony, didn't you manage to con a 3 minute gap behind us at Narooma when you were so concerned about us limping through the stage ahead of you with a sick car. Same thing isn't it.

[GefGef]

Originally Posted by Bogan

People can disagree with me all they like but you need to accept that you won't change my mind no matter how good your argument is.

T.

Fair enough. I'm not going to try. But, you really need to step back and take a look at the bigger picture and have a closer look at how most people do try to dustgap and the reasons most people end up using late time.

[afifield]

I think the best reason that event directors would have for not using road penalties for late time is the speeding factor. IMHO, there are far more people likely to speed to save a road penalty than there are that would choose to practice "dust gapping". This would probably be more obvious at novice level, because true novices may be unaware of the consequences (not just the financial/exclusion reasons).

The 2006 organisers conditions show a clear preference to single service parks. With this in mind, it would be easy to run a mini-regroup before or after each service. This would mean that someone "dust gapping" would have to do it repeatedly to gain any benefit.


Andrew

[tortfeaser]

Originally Posted by afifield

The 2006 organisers conditions show a clear preference to single service parks. With this in mind, it would be easy to run a mini-regroup before or after each service. This would mean that someone "dust gapping" would have to do it repeatedly to gain any benefit.

Its easy enough to run a regoup for the service, with a minimum time in regroup/service to ensure service time isn't being cut into.

[Mike Cherry]

Originally Posted by afifield

I think the best reason that event directors would have for not using road penalties for late time is the speeding factor. IMHO, there are far more people likely to speed to save a road penalty than there are that would choose to practice "dust gapping". This would probably be more obvious at novice level, because true novices may be unaware of the consequences (not just the financial/exclusion reasons).

The 2006 organisers conditions show a clear preference to single service parks. With this in mind, it would be easy to run a mini-regroup before or after each service. This would mean that someone "dust gapping" would have to do it repeatedly to gain any benefit.


Andrew

With having to attend lectures and briefings etc, all competitors should be aware of their responsibilities when competing.
Part of the co-drivers job is to ensure that they maintain their schedule during the event.
Speeding to avoid penalties is not an option, should a car be delayed, by an outside influence, it is essential that they do not break the law. Should they be delayed for reasons beyond their control, they need to approach the Organisers with their case.
Should they be delayed by their own issues, then they have to accept whatever penalties may be applied.
The average speeds are defineately set low to accomodate this to avoid public issues.
Re-groups can be done as part of the service period. We have done this for the past 5 years at Taree, without so much as a single hitch or comment, and only requires 1 set of controls as opposed to 2 for a separate re-group zone.

[Jme]

I always dust gap. I can book in ANY time I want. I had 11 minutes at Oberon... and I knew Sosi in front wouldn't steal it (cause of his moral stance on dustgapping) so I just played the cards. Why wouldn't ya??? I'd have been stupid not too!!!!

Co-drivers can book in any time they want to.... Target times are simply that... a target- that you may choose to miss.

If they want to stop dust-gapping, but not impose road penalties for lateness, all they have to do is hold the cars for 5 minutes in control - every control, instead of 3. This will compound and it will become much harder to get an advantage.

Anyway- said this all before. Dust-gapping isn't cheating.

What gets under my skin is that control procedures have gone to the dogs. The Yellow board may as well not exist, often I'm booking in and the car before me is still sittong outside the control zone.... and then you get the blokes who play games at the starting line. That's wrong, and they should hit them hard. Booking in late is completely different to refusing to line up, or not having belts on etc.

So... yeah- it's all BS. It's almost to the point where we should just put all the controlles on road-closures and leave 1 bloke with a clock at the start and end of the stage- cause nothing is being enforced anyway.

The end of rally controls are the biggest joke... inside in the pub. I know of 2 cars that have finished rallies and been classified without making it back to town... ya just hitch a ride with the service crew and hand your card in.

[Ian Bigg]

The starting line games are included in the standardised penalties - just have to teach controllies to report incidents and CofC to apply the penalty ...

Same with 5 minutes in control - works well, requires education, expect to see more often ...