Occupational Advantage

[Ric Cary]

Is there a fair and equitable way to eliminate ocupational advantage as has been brought up in the Event Report section, so our Apiarists, Posties,Foresters,Mountain Bikers and Cartographers don't end up having sixties style "Flashbacks" down selected pieces of road and setting times well above their weight divisions. which even to those of us at a distance using the downloaded numbers appear somewhat "interesting"

[DaveTrees]

Originally Posted by Ric Cary

Is there a fair and equitable way to eliminate ocupational advantage as has been brought up in the Event Report section, so our Apiarists, Posties,Foresters,Mountain Bikers and Cartographers don't end up having sixties style "Flashbacks" down selected pieces of road and setting times well above their weight divisions. which even to those of us at a distance using the downloaded numbers appear somewhat "interesting"

Is it really an "unfair" advantage ?

ANYONE can go driving through the forests on public roads (not "practising" as such, of course) in between events, and if you have a good memory for roads, then good on you.

It's just part of "self improvement" in the sport, I reckon. I used to spend heaps of weekends driving various forests updating my maps, finding "hard to see" tracks, navigation traps, etc.

[Annatastic]

You're never going to stop it. To quote Bart: "Too hard, don't try".

If you do want to stop it, you'd have to work out a rule that didn't automatically exclude ANY of the following:
1. People who live/work on the stages.
2. People who have run/officiated in earlier events in the same area.
3. People who undertake other recreational activities in the area.

I mean, if I go for a MTB ride one weekend before a 'blind' rally, and then the rally uses the same roads, am I a cheat?
What if my dad has a property off South Forest Way, and I've been out helping him maintain the property a few weeks before Caltex?

It's all a crock. Smee and others can complain about people having recced the roads pre-rally, but FFS, it's supposed to be a blind rally! How can anyone accurately recce the roads if they don't know the exact course?

And what about all of those people who help out at RoC and get to do a zillion kms around ACT forests... The only stage I knew yesterday was Bluetts - 'cause it was exactly the same stage as RoC which I helped out on this year...

I think it is funny that Smee is complaining that FF was out in the forest when he happily competed in Caltex a few years ago, when his wife was the CoC.

Whatever. Don't under-estimate FF. He's foul, obnoxious, smelly and generally disgusting, but the boy can drive - and he's finally got a decent car.
Hopefully he'll go and do an 'away' event soon, and prove the doubters wrong.

Spac (erm, just realised Anna's still logged in).

[TX3 Rally]

Drug testing will soon eliminate the sixties-style "Flashbacks" from what I know of that era - eg overland in a Combi from Europe to Goa in India or to Dahab in Egypt Closest I've ever come to rallying a Combi though was in Tassie on the legendary Suncoast Safari Rally which was almost a hippie event anyway - the damn rally car wouldn't start on the morning of the rally so we emptied the work Econovan of all the tools and jerry cans etc and ran it instead! Probably the first and only rally car in Australia to have dual rear wheels. Actually rally car would probably be an overglorification actually - but the spectators still reckoned us going through the speccie point totally sideways was a sight to behold Got me buggered how we got away with it since it was literally a work vehicle (owned by the driver's employer), but that was the Suncoast Safari for you - run what you brung - even if you didn't really plan on running it in the first place! First and only time that "Bulk Frozen Foods" ever sponsored a rally car The emphasis of that rally was more on fun than rules and regs and other things that might stop people having fun. BTW in case you were wondering we were fourth fastest in the Econovan on one stage, and scored three top-10 stage placings in a 31 car field

Anyway to stop digressing (or was that reminiscing?), I think that down here in Sunny Mexico there is usually a clause in the supp regs about how Practicing and Reconnaissance on roads in the general area of the event is forbidden for a period of four weeks before the event, and any crew detected doing this will not be permitted to start the event. You've probably got something similar in your regs up there I suspect.

As for legitimately being in the area for work purposes, that is hard to control. All you can probably do is ask them to limit their use of the areas to be used for the rally, and remind them that the less they use the area in the weeks leading up to the rally, the less likely that their actions will be questioned by fellow competitors. Certainly if a member of the directing team comes across a competitor on the roads in the weeks before the rally then they have the right to ask the competitor why they are there, and if they can't provide a satisfactory reason as to why they are on that specific road then they deserve to be reported to the stewards for treatment. E.G. if they have beehives at a particular location in the forest then it might be reasonable for them to be on the road that leads to that location, but if they are found on other roads in the area then they should be handed to the stewards for appropriate treatment.

Maybe it might be a good idea for competitors who need access the forest roads in the area that a rally is about to be held in to call the director and advise him exactly which roads they need to use, as a way of showing that what they are doing is legitimately necessary, rather than doing it to gain an advantage.

[Spac]

Also worth mentioning some names of rally drivers who were dismissed as home-event wonders when they first got noticed:
Ben Barker,
Kelvin Croker,
Gavin Croker,
Neal Bates,
Brad Fitzgerald...

I guess it's true - anytime any one suddenly gets fast, it's simply because they know their local roads, and they'll never, ever be fast anywhere else...


Actually, I think that I need to have a proper rave about the whole "but he knows the roads" excuse...
Later.

[Mark]

Originally Posted by Ric Cary

Is there a fair and equitable way to eliminate ocupational advantage as has been brought up in the Event Report section, so our Apiarists, Posties,Foresters,Mountain Bikers and Cartographers don't end up having sixties style "Flashbacks" down selected pieces of road and setting times well above their weight divisions?

A: No.

Maybe we should rename this thread

Regardless of it, Ray has made his reputation of speed and to take it away will be impossible. Think about people - one of them an ACT local - that have been busted in the past for having dodgy engine blocks - or the guy that caught by the Rangers when he left his broken indicator on the bank; yet they are still the fastest punters out there and will always get respected as such.

What an insane sport otherwise: name one other sport where the opportunities to practice under the governing body are so little i.e. Hyles practice test days and pre-event practice isn't allowed? Imagine the game of golf where you it costs $800 to hire the driving range and you can't play for two months on the course before the game. Bad analogy as golf courses just scream to me: get a rally car onto them and rip up some turf....

It's a hard thing to police; even if it could be effectively done here it would have to be effectively done everywhere. If you really wanted to do it, I'd chose the shire roads around Bega in the day before the event. Rally people are easy to spot on these roads - they're the ones grinning!

Ultimately, it was still a secret rally - but in the ACT there are only a few ways now run stages so I guess it is increasing the advantage.

Mark

[beanpole]

Strange also how the car was considered an iffy proposition a few weeks ago when I owned it, now with minor work (radiator?) it's the best value since....... whatever......

Ray backs himself in his driving and his confidence shows for it.



Kev

[Spac]

Kev, huh? Nobody said it's ****-hot or anything, just that it is light-years ahead of the bloody Subaru he had...

[Bogan]

I wanna see Ray go head to head with Gav Neale.



T.

[msgofast]

Originally Posted by Karl Willett

Cue the pace note supporters... Jme enter your text here

There are rules in the bible that says no one on the coarse 2 months prior to the event, so the regs don't have to carry it, as they are a "supplement" to the main rules and regs in the bible (cams National rally code).

The issue is there is soooooooooooooooooooo much time to be made by knowing where one can and can't go fast, wouldn't it be good if the road book had the corners that weren't what they looked like, eg tighten or RGx over crest, then the difference in speed would be way less as one could drive on what he new he was looking at....we could just pace note and remove even more of the gains to be made by "knowing"…..but alas….we can all dream

How was that east coast pace noted serries going/

[dazzler]

Originally Posted by msgofast

The issue is there is soooooooooooooooooooo much time to be made by knowing where one can and can't go fast, wouldn't it be good if the road book had the corners that weren't what they looked like, eg tighten or RGx over crest, then the difference in speed would be way less as one could drive on what he new he was looking at....we could just pace note and remove even more of the gains to be made by "knowing"…..but alas….we can all dream

How was that east coast pace noted serries going/

I reckon the tulips should be more descriptive

[raybak]

The Natcap's tulips were quite accurate. Many a time when it said RGR and the tulip looked like it tightened, the road actually did. Was ok for us, especially as we had no brakes for half the event we really needed that description off the tulip.

Ray

[Ric Cary]

Originally Posted by Karl Willett

Cue the pace note supporters... Jme enter your text here

P.S. Lucky those nasty Evo IIIs are not elligible for clubman. The VR4s simply can't match them. I rest my case (and Ric's )

"enter small violin playing my song smilie here"

Originally Posted by MSGOFAST

we could just pace note and remove even more of the gains to be made by "knowing"…..but alas….we can all dream

The New Zealand Championship runs on notes made by machine always identical NO RECCE has done for seven years...........problems????

[Tweety]

Originally Posted by Spac

To quote Bart: "Too hard, don't try".

Nah uh. If you're going to quote you have to get it right .

"Gotcha. Can't win, don't try".

[dazzler]

Being serious for a minute. Practice, from a safety viewpoint obviously should be banned.

But why should recce. Should every road director be banned from ever racing? Am I wrong in assuming that the director has looked at every corner of a rally in ACT probably five times at least?

Hasnt the road book checker done the same.

Anyone who has raced in the ACT has always had a huge advantage. Before competing I navigated for an ACT driver and before each stage he would ask to look at the notes and go "no worries", mark a few and say 'just call these ones".

On another section he said "just count the humps and call the sixth, or was that seventh so I know the road goes left on the next" or similar.

Wheres the problem If I want to walk the entire forest on my hands and knees with a theodolite and google earth. Gives me no more advantage than any ex director or competitor that has raced for more than a couple of seasons in the ACT. (well maybe a little )

So why not just ban practice and refer the complaint to police, ban pace notes and leave the rest alone.

Heres betting that a lot of ACT competitors look at the road book and go;

"so its pearces, east west, five ways and greenhills. no worries"

Why not encourage recce, as long as its not in a rally car, at normal speed, wheres the problem?

dazzler