Why are FWD cars considered dirty?

[MikeW]

I've been involved with rallies now for over 10 years, but only as an official. I plan to get myself into a car in the next couple of years and have my eye on a Charade.

So, just so I know before I get one..... why are FWD's considered dirty by those of you stuck in the 70's?

[raybak]

What sort of Charade are you after? Best bet is if you can find a De Tomaso as the Gtti's are getting scarce now, even though I like them better. Parts are very hard to find for the Gtti's but i do have a large selection, including a spare engine and 7 gearboxes. One good thing about a Gtti is that body panels are easily accessible, even bumpers whereas a De Tomaso's bumpers are a bit harder to find.

You could always run a 4WD Charade, pick them up in Japan for about $100 US then bring it out as a rally import.

Ray

[Bogan]

Originally Posted by Karl Willett

..but I think you'll find it's 90% stirring and 10% annoyance that their RWDs can get spanked by a well driven FWD

No, you're full of it, I love Kagan, really I do...



Summernats!!!

T.

[Jme]

The thing is that most fast FWD rally cars tend to need big revs, c/ratio g/boxes etc to do the times. They are bloody quick when the "package" comes together, but it's a "specialised" package in many regards. Most FWD cars that have gone quick at a club level have been ex-factory/arc or someone has spent reasonably big money/time to sort them out.

It's much easier to just build a 30yr old Dato grunter, which has been developed over the years, everyone knows what breaks on them etc, and they are relatively easy to drive. That's why we have all this GpG discussion at present... "I'm at a disadvantage in my 30yr old car against an Evorex- why can't I throw an XYZ engine in it and IRS like we could in 1978?" It just doesn't work as an option in 2006- for NSW State or Clubman competition that is. Maybe for multi-clubs etc, but in these times the "premier" state series should be featuring modern cars like the 4wd and FWD, modern RWDs. The issues seem to be that there just isn't the class structure in place to "support" competition in these vehicles (or at least competitor friendly/cost reducing classes), and as such the "pre-historic age" continues...

Honestly- it's time to leave the Gp2/4, GpG, Classic stuff in the pages of the history books- bring them out for Nostalgia and giggles as a novelty, and start putting our efforts into 2006 and beyond. As much as I enjoy seeing FIAT Arbath v BDA Escort it does little to foster our sport at the base level. The reason "Classics" have come under consideration by ARCom is simply that they will run at ARC level and there is a push by a few "influencial" rallying identities in their favour. If these guys want to leave the sport with a legacy they should push "Club Level" rallying to ARCom- leave something for the future, not for the past or present. Hyundai Excels, Charades, Mirages, Honda's etc are of more worth to our sport simple because they can provide entry level rallying at affordable cost- without highly specialised componentry. FWD rally cars are the future, RWD grunters are the past.... that's why FWD's have got a bad wrap- it's all tied up with evolution and change etc.

[fro]

I basically agree with what Jamie's saying, with the addition that all newer cars, and NA over 1600cc FWD cars in particular, aren't allowed many of the freedoms that the pre-86 PRC cars are. And because it's very expensive to make an over 1600cc "grunter" motor within the current PRC rules for a Civic/Integra/Mirage/Excel/Focus/Laser, you end up having to chase speed through close ratio gearboxes and such.

F16 was a step in the right direction, but limiting it to under 1600cc cars was the issue. The current PRC rules are a direct disincentive to getting a newer car. Applying the pre-86 PRC freedoms across the board would certainly relieve some of the problem... IMHO.

[MikeW]

I think we're drifting back into the what's wrong with PRC thread. I just wanted to hear from the RWD boys about why they hassle FWD's.

I saw in the last spokes magazine a picture of a corolla ~ 2004 model. Does anyone have any details of this car? Is it a standard corolla or a sportivo?

[raybak]

Michael,

That Corolla that you saw is Peter Taylor's London to Sydney car. Its still a FWD, and pretty standard compared to a lot of cars. Peter punts it along pretty quickly though.

Ray

[Factor]

I smile a lot more in a quick well driven rear steer than a FWD or evan a good 4WD

[TX3 Rally]

Having driven both FWD and RWD I find driving a FWD more enjoyable - you really have to drive them through the corners, be more aggresive etc to get good times.

[rowdytoot]

Originally Posted by Factor

I smile a lot more in a quick well driven rear steer than a FWD or evan a good 4WD

I'd agree that the smiley factor would be higher in RWD and thats while people like driving them... (well thats my reasoning anyway)

Rowds

[Mark]

Originally Posted by MikeW

I think we're drifting back into the what's wrong with PRC thread. I just wanted to hear from the RWD boys about why they hassle FWD's.

Okay: Power Oversteer is more fun than Power Understeer.

Mark

[Spac]

I'm not stuck in the 1970s (a least not when it comes to rally cars) and I own the "late model" RWD to prove it.

FWD is condsidered dirty and wrong for a HEAP of good and bad reasons. Some of them (roughly in order):
1. Most of us learned to drive in RWDs and learned that sideways = fast = fun, and FWD challenges that idea.
2. Stuff Jamie said.
3. FWDs (well, newer cars in general) have been the haven for a few talentless over-cashed fools who then object when they're beaten by better drivers in older RWDs and then kick up a stink about said RWDs. Other FWD owners are then tarnished by association.
4.Within the ACT rally community, most of the FWD owners are... "unique personalities", which makes them easy targets.

Seriously, JME and Fro are on the money. The sport will be better off when "we" all realise that newbies should be getting into 10~15 year old econoboxes and rallying the wheels off them - just like was happening 25 years ago...

[raybak]

So Spac, when you say unique personalities, what do you mean. Does it mean that because I own a FWD rally car I'm seriously different???

On a serious note, I think that FWD is definetely an easier way to get into rallying cheaply. Just look at the Excel series, you can build a car and be rallying for under $10k. There are plenty of FWD cars available already built, look at Glen Farrant's Suzuki, its affordable and for another couple for grand you would have a good P1 car.

I like FWD, have driven RWD recently and enjoyed it and will probably do a rally or 2 in the RX7 but I certainly like the Charade much more. Will have to see what my times are like in each car at the test track to see which is faster. The RX7 certainly has more grunt, but you travel that bit extra when you are sideways.

Ray

[TX3 Rally]

My name's Kent, and... umm... I own a front wheel drive rally car.

I admit that this addiction is a problem, and it affects my social life as I can't go out with da boyz and do big skidz.

I hope that this group will be kind to me and help me overcome my problem.

[TKM]

It doesn't matter what you drive dude, just so long as you're out there having fun.