National Tarmac Rally Series? (was Mt. Buller Sprint)

[buzz]

Mod Edit by fro: Thread split from discussion on the 2006 Porsche Mt Buller Sprint...

sorry to go a bit of topic... maybe just a little parallel!

Originally Posted by Trevor Stilling

A tarmac ARC series could be a good thing , most of the gravel boys would give all but the top half dozen serious porsches etc a decent run for their money...

I was going to post a new thread to ask this question.

Could a National Tarmac Rally series happen, and would it sound the death knell to the ARC is it currently exists (subsists).

Fro said elsewhere:

OH, and I'm trying to find/remember which country it was, but it is possible for the FIA to have more than one ASN for a country. I'm trying to remember the example of this that I found last year...

So another body could run, sanction etc a series based on Duttons, Targa, Mt Buller like events. Like Ausrally (I think said) entry money to Mt Buller is

$2,500 or some such and there are bucket of people wanting to run. Classic Adelaide was on the Telly last weekend and it seems they were beating of entrants with a stick. And Targa Tas seems to now be able to pick and choose who enters (ref the exclusion of "rally" cars).

Subaru have taken their bat and ball from ARC to play on the blacktop. It could be frustration with the ARC is it currently is trying to work, but really, they best know how to spend their dollars and the market for their product in dirt rally is likely not all that big, so targetting events where they are more likely to be seen in the flesh, and more relevant to their customer base makes sense.

The money behind some of the Targa Tas cars would scare most entrants in many club and state level motorsports, and their backers are willing to pit them and the hired gun drivers against trees and drop-offs. So there must be something in it for them.

If a Tarmac series was established, and someone finally beat all the event holders into line with a single set of national rules, would it be the end of rally in this country as we know it? It seems that unless it was set up to drive people away (eg like the ARC) then people would flock to it and money would follow. When real public interest goes there, then tv interest will go as well - not needing to (apparently) be bought.

Imagine a national Tarmac event with a round in Canberra... stages up Black Mountain and Mt Ainslie, along the Cotter road, Lady Denman Drive... super specials in the car parks in Civic and at the airport offices,... transports along major public thoroughfares... How many years ago was it that there was last a tarmac stage along the bottom of Black Mountain? 25? More than 20 I'm sure!

Mark

[raybak]

Very hard to get Tarmac stages in ACT, due to the Government not wanting to close off roads.

There have been inquiries into running a Targa like event with no luck after discussions with government departments.

Ray

[fro]

Okay, Buzz (and others wanting to weigh in on the discussion), take a look here and here first.

Originally Posted by buzz

Could a National Tarmac Rally series happen, and would it sound the death knell to the ARC is it currently exists (subsists).

A National Tarmac Rally Series could happen. Excluding Duttons (because they are really TRE's, consisting of speed sub-events, and not Special Stages).

The drama that a "National" Tarmac Rally Series would face is that Australia is a big, mostly pretty flat country. Hence we make long, sweeping, flowing roads. And so the average speeds on our roads are exceedingly high.

Tasmania and the Adelaide Hills have shown that there is enough distance there to run a decent length Special Stage Rally, and maintain maximum average speeds of less than 130km/h. Things like East Coast Targa struggled, and Targa West had big problems. Don't even think about things like the (ill-fated) Cannonball Run...

And despite being run under a rally permit, I don't see Mt Buller Sprint as a Rally. It's a glorified hillclimb, at best a rallysprint run under the wrong permit. I hardly call 8(?)* runs up the same bit of road a rally.

At which point, you have two states that can "legitimately" run events for a National Tarmac Rally Series. Somewhat problematic.

Not to mention the vehicle eligibility concerns.

That said, I can see advantages to having tarmac rounds of the ARC (in Tas and SA?). But I don't advocate that either, because I see large disadvantages too!

* - I seem to vaguely recall 8. I don't know, I don't really care that much. Tarmac "rallying" in the Mt Buller context concerns me from several aspects. But I can't say it interests me greatly.

[fro]

Thread split from discussion on the 2006 Porsche Mt Buller Sprint...

[fro]

Originally Posted by raybak

Very hard to get Tarmac stages in ACT, due to the Government not wanting to close off roads.

There have been inquiries into running a Targa like event with no luck after discussions with government departments.

I have no reason to doubt you Ray, but I do. Despite that, the road closure isn't the part that concerns me. Where in the ACT are you going to find enough distance in tarmac (non-suburban) roads for a Targa style event, that don't have ridiculous average speeds?

Even stuff like the BitB tarmac stage would probably exceed the 130km/h notional maximum average speed in the dry, in a "proper" Tarmac Rally car (eg Porsche GT3, GT2 or Lamborghini Gallardo).

[fro]

To indulge in a bit of gratuitous self-quoting:

Originally Posted by fro

That said, I can see advantages to having tarmac rounds of the ARC (in Tas and SA?). But I don't advocate that either, because I see large disadvantages too!

As mentioned over here, looks like Atko is heading to do an Irish rally to get more tarmac experience. So obviously, if we want to have exports to the WRC, having tarmac experience is important.

But is that/should that be a priority for the ARC? For Australian Motorsport, in general?

[Mark]

...but I reckon you could become quite rich quite quickly if you start organising tarmac rallies with those kind of entrie fees-even if it is a glorified hill climb! Might be a good way to earn your rally budget for a season.

Mark

[Spac]

It seems to me that the guys that flock to Mt Buller, ECT, and Targa Tas are VERY different to the typical gravel rally guys. Yes, I know we had plenty of the gravel rally regulars at all of those events, but more often than not they seem to be navs getting a free/cheap ride, or officials...

Although tarmac rallying (as a concept, in Australia) scares me stupid, I do recognse that it is popular and growing - but I think the growth is not at the expense of gravel rallying. The growth in tarmac rallying seems mostly to come from circuit and steet car guys, and usually the overly cashed-up, under-talented/under experienced ones at that.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not claiming that Dean H or Jim R are short of talent or experience! Rather, I'm suggesting that a large portion of the field in those events are people who aren't really all that interested in saving 0.5s/km or staying up to 4am on the morning of the event to get their car back together, or be prepared to eat baked beans so they can pay for new tyres....

Sorry, I'm a little OT, but I guess I'm trying to say that I'm not sure whether a National Tarmac Rally Championship would really be that successful, once it became a proper hard-fought championship and people started realising how far off the pace they really are, and how much money they've been spending...

[Kagan]

A Tarmac Series would probably have the following with the fans. I would expect people how have the fan base from the V8's would look at the Tarmac series as something to do when they finish with the V8's, like Jim Richards has done. I dare say if we had it, then the likes of Jim Richards and Peter Brock would come over when they finished with the V8's, then Dick Johnson and other would probably follow as they would still have the rivalry. I think any grow in the interest of rallying, whether it is Gravel or Tarmac is a good thing, and we will see the flow on effects over the next few years.

[fro]

Originally Posted by Mark

...but I reckon you could become quite rich quite quickly if you start organising tarmac rallies with those kind of entrie fees-even if it is a glorified hill climb!

Well, it's worked for Sam Beck and the associated dudes. They run Dutton Rallies in NSW, QLD, VIC, and WA, and I thought had something (although just what I'm not sure) to do with Mt Buller Sprint.

[Mike Morris]

The Evolution of Tarmac Rallying

1. Tarmac Rallying originated in Europe, in countries where they dont have enough forests or dirt roads to run a conventional gravel event, but at least they largely conformed to the existing rally cars regs of the day.

2. "Tarmac Rallying" in Australia was started with the extremely dangerous early Targa Tasmania events started by the then (or recent) CAMS CEO John Large. At this time, if I or any other pleb had submitted a permit application to CAMS to run a bitumen rally allowing virtually any type of supercar, I would have been laughed out of town! But for some reason, John Large and his team got the permits they wanted.

3. "Tarmac Rallying" in this country was started purely to extract the dollars out of the weekend warrior millionaire set with their supercars going mouldy in their Double Bay garages. It was not intended to be or become a sporting thing, face it, it was a money making operation.

4. Early "Tarmac Rallies" WERE DANGEROUS and people were killed and maimed. It took CAMS and ARCOM too long to realise it, but at least they have now enforced the safety aspects and appointed a checker with some idea of the dangers. Oh.........so you dont think "Tarmac Rallies are dangerous? Imagine identical corners, one bitumen and the other gravel, what are the speed variations going to be? Up to double the speed on Bitumen I reckon. And where is the most likely spot on that corner to lose control, right on the gravel edge next to the big tree where you'll hit it at anything up to twice the speed of the same gravel corner.

5. Existing "tarmac rallies" do come at an expense to gravel events. Many of the rich competitors blowing there megabucks down the shchute on tar stages are the type of people who should be supporting the sport in other ways, but now their "budgets" are spent on themselves. "Nice proposal mate, but we're already overspent in our Rally budget".

6. Vehicle eligibility is an absolute JOKE! Question for ARCOM:

WHY IS IT THAT IN "SAFE GRAVEL" EVENTS THE CARS (TOURING SEDANS) MUST BE RESTRICTED TO 34MM (300bhp if you're dreaming) BUT ON THE NASTY OLD DANGEROUS TARMAC RALLIES I CAN RUN MY 1000bhp EXOCTICAR WITH MINIMAL COMPETITION EXPERIENCE?

Logical answer; Because if Australian "Tarmac Rallies" had the same vehicle eligibility as gravel events then Targa Tas, Buller etc would all go ar5e up because all the boys would have to leave their toys locked up at Double Bay. Their is very little chance of these types of competitors buying an EVORex or similar if the regs were changed to conform, as they should be.

ARCOM must be treading on thin liability ice with these Tarmac Rally Vehicle Eligibilty Regs.

[fro]

Nice post, Mike. And with a healthy dose of cynicism/realism.

[Mike Morris]

Originally Posted by fro

Nice post, Mike. And with a healthy dose of cynicism/realism.

Sorry bout that Fro,

But I stand by the facts that Australian "Tarmac Rallies" were created and continue to be run for all the wrong greedy reasons.

They have virtually no sporting credentials whatsoever and I am very disappointed that people are growing into the idea that they do.

[Factor]

Originally Posted by Mike Morris

The Evolution of Tarmac Rallying


6. Vehicle eligibility is an absolute JOKE! Question for ARCOM:

.

Like I said earlier - a twin turbo 66 mustang is eligible - Im totally confused.

[fro]

Originally Posted by Mike Morris

Sorry bout that Fro

Dude, no need to be sorry at all. "Chaps Rallying" as Crawford has so eloquently put it, is an area of concern for anyone who has an interest in the future of rallying as a sport.