In car video from Suzuki S1600 Finland 2005

[tortfeaser]

Who knows? You'd think the NA BP motor, but its a mystery to me.

[TX3 Rally]

Ok, I'll answer a few of the more realistic questions (and only the ones that aren't way way over my head like piston speed etc - I didn't build the engine, I just drive the bloody thing).

Originally Posted by Mark

The problem is, Kent, is that you're talking big horsepower out of 1600cc.

There's a bit of knowledge from a few people on the forum regarding 4AGE's for example-another 1600cc as you know- engine.

Firstly I should point out that the guy building the engine spent over ten years building racing engine's full time in the U.S. for Mazda Miata's, and before that he built engines for Rod Millen's Mazda rally cars. The first few years of Miata production shared the same engine that we run (B6D which is a n/a 1598cc DOHC engine). So obviously Glen has a great deal of experience with getting performance out of this engine. Someone mentioned that Sam Brand's car had lots of TRD parts in it, due to the popularity of the Miata's in the U.S. there is available a lot of high performance engine bits for this engine as well - oversize valves, titanium valve springs, cams, high comp pistons, and so on. Do a google search for "Flying Miata" and "Toda Racing" to get some idea of what's available.

Originally Posted by tortfeaser

What is a Laser Sport? Was it built here? Did Ford sell Lasers in Japan? Or is it a Mazda? BP motor? What CVs? Driveshafts?

A Laser Sport is very similar to the TX3 that was released in Australia, except that it had a n/a DOHC 16v 1598cc engine. It was sold by Ford in Japan, from about mid-95 to mid-99 (haven't got the exact dates in front of me) in both the KC and KE models. Like the TX3's here though, they were built by Mazda.

Originally Posted by Mark

Oh and Suzuki S1600 - bore: 81 stroke: 77.5
Official rev limit: 8,500rpm: 4322fpm
Rumoured revlimit: 9,200rpm: 4678 fpm - very similar to F1...

Mark

Talking to the guys in Europe, one of the biggest limiting factor's they find with an S1600 engine is the 60mm air inlet restrictor.

Originally Posted by tortfeaser

Oh yeah, I'm on the Corolla thing too - its just rubbish. The F16 argument doesn't wash as (apparently) these are a pre-'86 car not eligible for F16 at ARC level. Unless there's a loophole - have a particular car manufactured after 1 Jan '86 that is of a model type manufactured prior to '86. You get the pre'86 freedoms and get to compete in F16.

As the KC Laser was manufactured both before and after 01 Jan '86 we have the option of running the car with the pre '86 freedoms as a P2 car, or with just the F16 freedoms if we want to run in F16 - we may do this in '07 depending on how this year pans out.

[Matt Dyne]

Kent...I'm not much for slinging negativity, so good luck with it. Sounds like you're committing to the car whatever the actual numbers look like and here's to a good result.

As discussed elsewhere, FWD Laser's have a good rep up here in QLD with the Carrigan bloke...so who knows, maybe this is the next winner.

Get some photos of the car too...keen to see what it looks like.

Cheers,
Matt

[Mark]

I could write a long winded reply, quoting everything and making fun in a snide and sarcastic way. But I won't

None of the Touring Cars ever made over 10,000 rpm - I think. Even the F2 cars like the Peugeot and Citroens that beat the WRCars a few years back didn't crack 10K rpm and in the end they limited revs to make more torque. Presumably your car idles at 2,500 rpm, comes onto the power band around 9,500 rpm through to 12,000 rpm.

I also look forward to what gear ratios and final drive you're running? Are you running a stock Mazda/Ford gearbox?

I'll summarise it, slowly:
I've taken the facts in previous post.
A 83.6mm stroke in a B6D will only rev at best to 8,500rpm before it breaks. It will not make 230hp at 12,800 rpm. You can change the stroke - a bit - but your engine is undersquare and it is essentially a stroker not a revver.

Two words:
"PROVE IT".
And a picture of a 13B dyno sheet doesn't count

I've nothing else to add. I realise your pride and reputation is on the line and you have come this far with your comments. If the mistake is genuinely not yours and the engine builders and you're reciting his comments then I'd be angry if I were you that you've been lied to, and taken for an idiot by him. The biggest problem is that the story is being told to a forum that technical aspects are often part of the sport, this isn't a forum about how low can I run my bodykit. We often admire an awesome or technically impressive piece of kit. It isn't the place for bogus claims to be made.

Signing off from this topic.

Mark

[tortfeaser]

Ayee. Only Fro could make that motor rev that hard.

I'm now more interested in the Laser Sport addition. Its too late to change (although I note that ARCom never confirmed its email vote at a formal meeting), but anyway...

I don't get how a car built and sold exclusively in Japan in 1995 at the earlist can claim to be the same model as one first built and sold in Australia in late '85 with an entirely different motor. It makes a mockery both of the intent of the PRC regs and the 'pre '86 exemption particularly. Either its a model particular to Japan first built in '95 and thus ineligible for the pre '86 freedoms or its a Japanese-import version of the Australian '85 model and ineligible with the twin cam motor.

[Spac]

Kent, what fuel are you running?

Mawk, The 2-litre Supertourers were rev limited (to 8750rpm, IIRC).

There's no way a 86mm stroked engine could safely rev to 12,800rpm, even with trick bits. Even if you can get the whole thing to hold together (remembering that the loads go up at the square of RPM), the available valve area (limited by the bore) would be far too small to allow it to make any useful power at those revs.

So 230hp is highly implausable, and nearly 13k rpm is essentially impossible.

As Dyno suggested, this doesn't mean that the car won't be a weapon. I know most people will disregard the following as being the product of my Mazda bias, but the newer Mazda piston engines are inherently very good things.
As Kent said, the B6 is about the 4AGE's equal, despite it being ignored in Australia and Japan, and I've heard more than one person say that the FE-G is actually capable of making more power than the FJ20 (NA).

Tort, what's the source for the "Laser Sport = 1995+" info? I'd always thought that there were 2WD naturally aspirated KC/KE Lasers with the B6 twin cam (which is what Kent's car is). Can't recall why I thought it, but I have a clear image of such an engine bay for some reason...
If things are as you say, then it is an interesting situation...

[afifield]

Spac,

Have a look at Kent's last post. Maybe it's a type and he meant to say 85 - 89 or something??

[tortfeaser]

Originally Posted by Spac

Tort, what's the source for the "Laser Sport = 1995+" info? I'd always thought that there were 2WD naturally aspirated KC/KE Lasers with the B6 twin cam (which is what Kent's car is). Can't recall why I thought it, but I have a clear image of such an engine bay for some reason...
If things are as you say, then it is an interesting situation...

I'm only going on what Kent's provided. I've no idea of what a Laser Sport is and wanted Kent to explain.

[Spac]

Ah, indeed. I'd even read that...
Definitely a typo by Kent - the KC/KEs were the mid~late 1980s Lasers - they sure weren't being made in the late 1990s!

So it's no more or less 'deserving' of being on the list than a Cyborg Mirage, or a Turbo SW20 MR2...

I've often wondered about the factory rotary HB 929s. Not Australian delivered, but they were FIA homologated with the 13b 6-port in 1986, so they're fine for PRC.
But I'm pretty sure they were built in 1985 with the 13B 6-port... so would it be eligible for the pre-1986 freedoms or not?

[VicMike]

Interesting thread!

http://lasertx3.orcon.net.nz/engine-guide.htm

[fro]

Kent,

What rod bolts are you using?

What driveshafts/CV's are you using?

[Matt Dyne]

Friends of ours used to have a KE TX3, NA 2WD with the B6 twincam 16v, but redbook suggests the NA TX3 had the OHC 1.6. Still a B6 so can you change heads?

Interestingly, it shows the weight at 890KG.

Bring it.

M

[TX3 Rally]

Again I'll try to answer as best I can, but remember I have very little knowledge of even what half the parts in an engine are called, let alone how they work - as I said I just drive the bloody thing.

Originally Posted by Mark

None of the Touring Cars ever made over 10,000 rpm - I think. Even the F2 cars like the Peugeot and Citroens that beat the WRCars a few years back didn't crack 10K rpm and in the end they limited revs to make more torque. Presumably your car idles at 2,500 rpm, comes onto the power band around 9,500 rpm through to 12,000 rpm.

Unfortunately the dyno printouts are in my work car, which is currently at the panel beaters following Tuesday's attack by a P Plater, so I don't know where it comes onto the power band. I know that it does idle at about 2,200 though, because I remember seeing it sitting there on the tacho.

I also look forward to what gear ratios and final drive you're running? Are you running a stock Mazda/Ford gearbox?

I haven't got the foggiest idea what the ratio's are - again the numbers would mean nothing to me. It's an Albins close ratio dogbox, beyond that I can't tell you much because I simply don't know much more about it - remember I just drive the bloody thing, apart from that Glen is currently working through the modifications required to fit up an ex-Rod Millen 6 speed X-Trac box that Rod used in his 4wd turbo 323's (same block and head essentially).

I'll summarise it, slowly:
I've taken the facts in previous post.
A 83.6mm stroke in a B6D will only rev at best to 8,500rpm before it breaks.

I know that that bit simply isn't true, as pur previous engine which ran B6 turbo rods and Miata pistons was redlined at 9,000rpm and went there regularly.

Two words:
"PROVE IT".
And a picture of a 13B dyno sheet doesn't count

I'm hoping to get the car back from the panel beaters in about ten days, so once I get it I will be able to do that.

[TX3 Rally]

Originally Posted by tortfeaser

I don't get how a car built and sold exclusively in Japan in 1995 at the earlist can claim to be the same model as one first built and sold in Australia in late '85 with an entirely different motor. It makes a mockery both of the intent of the PRC regs and the 'pre '86 exemption particularly. Either its a model particular to Japan first built in '95 and thus ineligible for the pre '86 freedoms or its a Japanese-import version of the Australian '85 model and ineligible with the twin cam motor.

I cocked that bit up - change all the 9's for 8's - basically mid-85 to mid-89.

[TX3 Rally]

Originally Posted by Spac

Kent, what fuel are you running?

It's a fuel from a company here in Melbourne called "Just Fuel" - meets the CAMS requirements and is a lot cheaper than ELF. It's used by a lot of circuit racing competitors apparently.

Mawk, The 2-litre Supertourers were rev limited (to 8750rpm, IIRC).

I guess that would explain why they didn't rev to 10,000 rpm then.

There's no way a 86mm stroked engine could safely rev to 12,800rpm, even with trick bits. Even if you can get the whole thing to hold together (remembering that the loads go up at the square of RPM), the available valve area (limited by the bore) would be far too small to allow it to make any useful power at those revs.

Again all of this is unfortunately way above my very limited knowledge of engines.

As Dyno suggested, this doesn't mean that the car won't be a weapon. I know most people will disregard the following as being the product of my Mazda bias, but the newer Mazda piston engines are inherently very good things.
As Kent said, the B6 is about the 4AGE's equal, despite it being ignored in Australia and Japan, and I've heard more than one person say that the FE-G is actually capable of making more power than the FJ20 (NA).

I think that it will be a weapon, probably not in my hands though.

Tort, what's the source for the "Laser Sport = 1995+" info? I'd always thought that there were 2WD naturally aspirated KC/KE Lasers with the B6 twin cam (which is what Kent's car is). Can't recall why I thought it, but I have a clear image of such an engine bay for some reason...
If things are as you say, then it is an interesting situation...

The only twincam KC/KE Laser released in Australia were all turbo models, all n/a's were single cam models. Ford in Japan released the DOHC model in n/a form over there as the Laser Sport. I wish that Ford Australia had of done likewise because it sure would have made my life a lot easier!