NSW Novice Vehicle Eligibility (was: AWOL Clubman South Competitors)

[smee]

ModEdit: This thread has been split from this thread.

Originally Posted by Matt

...and you could run a $30,000 Honda Civic, or a $40,000 Commodore, or a $50,000 BMW.

Why? Because they are 2wd.

Obviously people are too delicate.

The rally panels decision to exlude them is wrong.
They are forcing some novices in a direction they may not wish to head.

They don't place people in other sports in the top grades just because they buy the best bat or ball or shoes.
People need to develop their skills in rallying (like any other sport) and I was probably under the wrong assumption that this was what novice was all about.

Fair enough, if you have been competing for a number of years you are not novice elligible even in 2 wheel drive (Hey Spac)

[Kagan]

They don't place people in other sports in the top grades just because they buy the best bat or ball or shoes.

Yes but having the top of the line bat doesn't increase the chances of you losing control and firing into trees in excess of 150kmh... I think there is a little bit of risk assesment here.

[Spac]

...And motorsport places far more emphasis on equipment than any other sport.

I mean, if I was playing tennis against Federer (sp?), he'd still kick my asre even if he was using a ping-pong paddle and wearing pluggers.
But if JS and Glenn Farrant swapped cars, I wouldn't be certain of the result...


Further, all of the top of the line gear for soccer/football/tennis/cricket, isn't going to cost more than $2k... but, you can easily spend $300,000 on a nice new Prodrive built WRX...
Would the other Novices be happy if Joe Newbie turned up with a $300,000 car and whipped their asres? Would it be good for the Novice Series?

Originally Posted by Smee

They are forcing some novices in a direction they may not wish to head.

This is an interesting one.
If a true novice buys a WRX, where is he/she headed? If they're just out to get a feel for the sport, then why buy a $18k+ car? Why not buy a $3k Gemini or Corona or whatever?

Nobody is forced to compete in the novice series. If you don't like the rules/series, don't register. Funny thing is that in previous years, lots of people have made it clear that they're not interested in the NSW Novice Series, so at least the RAP is trying something.

The NSW Novice Series has clearly lost its way in the last few years. 2006 is a 'healing' year, and 2007 may also be. I don't consider myself to be a Novice, but I registered and will support the series because I think it will be a very good series - all of the events are good, they're all simple fuss-free events, the entry fees are cheap and because I'm eligible...
In the unlikey event that I start kicking asre, and regularly beating all of the "real" novices, then I'll stop ticking the magic box on the entry forms, and probably save myself a few trips to the central/north coast...

[fro]

Smee, if you were really concerned about Turbo4WDs being excluded from categories, you would (have been and still) be all up in arms (as some are, eh Ric ) about the P5/N4 exclusion from NSW Clubman. As it is, now there is some sort of progression through the ranks, and there is the hope that NSW Novice will actually mean something, and have some competition, as opposed to the pointless contest its been for the last few years.

If you have a big weapon, go play with the big boys.

I can't help feeling that maybe Smee's real problem here is that the rules have changed to stop him being a big fish in a little pond, and that's the premise behind this discussion...

[Mike Cherry]

The Novice Series fulfills at least what I have always maintained, do your apprenticeship and learn the craft of competing.

[Dave Ferris]

Originally Posted by Karl Willett

Cars are about classes (P1, P2, P5 blah blah)

Driver categories (novice, clubman etc.) are about experience

Driver categories are NOT about ability, skill, budget, or car.

This debate has been had ad infinitum on this forum. Some still confuse the above and continue to want to lob drivers around from category to category based the car they're driving.

Car class.... driver category... they're even spelt differently.

[Spac]

Originally Posted by Karl Willett

Cars are about classes (P1, P2, P5 blah blah)

<snip>
Driver categories are NOT about ability, skill, budget, or car.

Not any more. It worked when the Driver Grading list worked, and when competitors were all in roughly equal vehicles (no AWDs in which even the most talentless spode can get reasonable results).

The Series is a product. The competitors are our customers.

More competitors = better series = greater 'commercial success' = the best outcome for the series.

Now, as a designer I might really like a particular idea, but if the market has repeatedly shown that it doesn't like that idea (and therefore does not buy the product), then basic commercial reality dictates that the idea should be abandoned, and quickly.

Driver categories (novice, clubman etc.) are about experience

Oh yeah? So why am I still NSW Novice? Why is Pete still NSW Clubman? Why is Roland Schmitz still Novice? Rob Inall? Etc, ad nauseum.

Even when the driver grading list starts working again, it will still only reflect Speed, not experience. Why have you never proposed that the Driver Categories are based purely on the number of competitive kilometres travelled? This would be the only way to reflect "experience" in the driver categories...

[Spac]

Originally Posted by Spac

Even when the driver grading list starts working again, it will still only reflect Speed, not experience.

I don't understand the point of your last post?
Are you saying that the driver grading scheme is totally flawed, and will never work?
What do you propose as an alternative? My not-entirely-serious suggestion of competitive kms travelled is the only thing I can think of that meets the criteria of reflecting "experience".

Yes, I am being difficult. Like I said in a previous post, everyone accepts that the current system is flawed - it's just that nobody has come up with a less-flawed one, so it's a difficult problem and I don't accept the attitude of "I'm not going to acknowledge the problems and try to work around them, you should do something better".

No response to the other issues I raised?

edit: sorry, while I'm being pedantic, I should make sure my glass walls are boarded up as best as possible....

I dont believe that your "category = driver experience and nothing else" idea is workable, or even desired by the majority of competitors.
Competitors who AREN'T at the top of the financial tree, don't like being beaten to an award by money alone. Yes, yes, it's all very sheep-stationish, but it is reality. Most of us will be happy/tolerant of being beaten by talent/skill/experience, but only if it is clear that finances aren't the main factor.
It's all well and good to say "But even back in the 1970s, there was a huge difference between the works cars and most beginner cars", but the fast cars were far harder to drive at a moderate pace, so a clueless driver was going to struggle in a 250hp RWD. Put that same driver into a $50k WRX and they're going to be able to take the fight to the decent novice drivers in the 2WDs.

And besides, are we doing even more damage to the sport by 'demanding' that even the Novice championship requires a $50k car? We've avoided that problem in the past simply due to competitor disinterest. Either the changes to the Series will fix the disinterest (and thereby introduce the problem), or it's all irrelevant because the competitors still won't care...
Either way, I don't see an argument to support the idea that we should be allowing Evorexes.

Edit 2... the 'previous post' that I refer to follows. Please excuse the self quoting ...

2. The "no AWD turbo" thing. I know it's not perfect, but the rationale was:
a) Most Novices don't buy AWD Turbos as their first rally cars, and those that do are usually go and play with the big boys at state/ARC level.
b) If you've got the commitment to buy and run a good AWD-T, then you don't need a "kiddy class" like Novice.
c) While some 2WDs are faster than some AWD-Ts (that's the cars, not the drivers), most are clearly not.
d) The fast 2WDs are normally a lot harder for a novice to drive on the limit than a fast AWD - so even if Freddie Novice got a good Turbo RX-7, he's still going to have to work a lot harder than if he'd bought a VR4. So while you can always buy speed, it's harder to do so if the AWD-Ts are excluded.

Like I said, it's not perfect, but it's the best compromise I've seen. If anyone feels strongly about it, and can come up with a better novice vehicle eligibility rule, then it will be looked at long and hard.
Remember that Novice is for the competitors, and no-one else. Most of them are in 2WD cars and don't want to be beaten by people in AWD-Ts - while allowing AWD-Ts may be more technically/idealolicgally correct, it will be a big step backwards if it p155es off a lot of the competitors.

And yes, it is reviewed year-by-year, because we recognise that AWD-Ts are becoming more and more affordable all the time.

[smee]

Originally Posted by Kagan

Yes but having the top of the line bat doesn't increase the chances of you losing control and firing into trees in excess of 150kmh... I think there is a little bit of risk assesment here.

And what is the difference with you hitting a tree at 150 in Southies old Silvia, or Kingys 200b or me in my Familia.
Nothing.....
We all hit at 150kph. Only two of them are 2wd.....

[Spac]

Even well sorted 2WDs are going to be far, far scarier on the way to 150kph.
Unlike any half-way decent AWD, you can't just hop in and blast up to 150kph without having to work at it.
And the 2WD is far, far more likely to spear the over-confidant novice into aditch or bank at low speeds...

Look at how many serious road crashes kids have had in WRXes and Skylines, compared to HSVs (or other big power RWD).
Everyone knows that the AWDs grip far better and are basically safer at higher speed, but that's what brings these guys undone - they're going so fast when you first over-step the mark that most inexperienced drivers don't have a hope in hell of catching it. And when it does go wrong, the impact is that much bigger...
The big ol' Commodore will generally give far more warning, and will "bite" at a much lower speed.

And in a rally situation, 2WDs will get to 150kph far less often than similarly powered AWDs.

Kagan's original post summed it up nicely, although apparently too subtley: AWDs increase the chances of a novice driver firing into the tress at 150kph.

[Kagan]

Spac beat me to it, and summed it up much better!!!

[smee]

Originally Posted by Spac

...And motorsport places far more emphasis on equipment than any other sport.
This is an interesting one.
If a true novice buys a WRX, where is he/she headed? If they're just out to get a feel for the sport, then why buy a $18k+ car? Why not buy a $3k Gemini or Corona or whatever?
...

You could ask Langdon Patrick that question.

In 3 events I have known him to do, he has stuck it off. He even went off at the RoC launch day. This car was a pace setting car in it's time, and he runs no better than midfield.
Yes he will get better with practice, and will come to explore the full limits of the car. Richard Houghton is another example. Front running car with a novice driver.
It's obvious that their taste for cars was set higher so that they grew into them instead of driving the ring off a 30 year old hack before moving on......
Some of the safety points may be why these people chose the car they did. I want alot of grip, and a lot of speed. All 2wd do not give me both........

And Nathan, you have to work a 4wd also to get anywhere. It is not the picnic you perceive.
If you do not drive them properly, the won't turn. Get it wrong on the exit and they will spit you off. Brake to hard and the thing will lock up and spin you round.
Not that I know whether you have driven a 4wd in anger or not for a full event and not a putt around a test track, but I can say it was a big eye opener for me to drive one compared to the Gemini. I was scared ****less the first time I drove one.
150kph was way fast enough for me.
Anyone can go fast, just bury your foot and hang on. But to control a car on tight and demanding courses requires skill, no matter what car you are in.

Also, I am well out of Novice. To have a go at it now is not a challenge. (obviously some think it is)
Novice should have been set a time limit long ago. Compete for 3 or more years or so and up you go. Or maybe a bit like the ACT series. Do more than x events at any level and up you go.

Clubman is a different level.

Some peoples speed/machinery does not permit them to progress. hiya Mr Bailey.

NSW Clubman may become a little like the ACT series, where the only people in Clubman are the previous years novice.....

[Spac]

Karl,
I think everyone agrees that the ideal would be to have worthwhile classes within each driver category - so you'd have Novice P1 through to Novice P5, and the same for Clubman and outright.
Of course, the problem is that we simply don't have enough competitors, and 'every child wins a prize', which devalues ALL of the prizes, even the hard-fought ones.

So we have to compromise.

What the ACT and NSW Series have chosen to do, is attempt to put some kind of loose cost limitations on the Novice and Clubman series so that the majority of competitors will still have a championship that is worth contesting (not to mention the risk minimisation stuff).
What if Brenden Thomas had chased NSW Novice last year? He was more than entitled to do so - what hope would the guys in 6-cylinder Commodores and old Datsuns have had?
Why would they bother turning up to get their arses wiped? When they all stayed home, what good would it have done the seires?

Yes, I know you're saying "but it's about driver experience, not the cars", but I'm saying that the championship is about the competitors and the competiton.
In other words, a series based around a flawless ideal is still a complete and utter failure if you have only one crew contesting it.

Compromise.

[Spac]

Originally Posted by smee

You could ask Langdon Patrick that question.

In 3 events I have known him to do, he has stuck it off. He even went off at the RoC launch day. This car was a pace setting car in it's time, and he runs no better than midfield.
Yes he will get better with practice, and will come to explore the full limits of the car. Richard Houghton is another example. Front running car with a novice driver.
It's obvious that their taste for cars was set higher so that they grew into them instead of driving the ring off a 30 year old hack before moving on......

And your point is?

Is Langdon upset that he cannot contest the NSW Novice Series? Or is he looking to bigger things?

Once more:

2. The "no AWD turbo" thing. I know it's not perfect, but the rationale was:
a) Most Novices don't buy AWD Turbos as their first rally cars, and those that do are usually go and play with the big boys at state/ARC level.
b) If you've got the commitment to buy and run a good AWD-T, then you don't need a "kiddy class" like Novice.
c) While some 2WDs are faster than some AWD-Ts (that's the cars, not the drivers), most are clearly not.
d) The fast 2WDs are normally a lot harder for a novice to drive on the limit than a fast AWD - so even if Freddie Novice got a good Turbo RX-7, he's still going to have to work a lot harder than if he'd bought a VR4. So while you can always buy speed, it's harder to do so if the AWD-Ts are excluded.

Like I said, it's not perfect, but it's the best compromise I've seen. If anyone feels strongly about it, and can come up with a better novice vehicle eligibility rule, then it will be looked at long and hard.Remember that Novice is for the competitors, and no-one else. Most of them are in 2WD cars and don't want to be beaten by people in AWD-Ts - while allowing AWD-Ts may be more technically/idealolicgally correct, it will be a big step backwards if it p155es off a lot of the competitors.

And yes, it is reviewed year-by-year, because we recognise that AWD-Ts are becoming more and more affordable all the time.

[Kagan]

ou could ask Langdon Patrick that question.

In 3 events I have known him to do, he has stuck it off. He even went off at the RoC launch day. This car was a pace setting car in it's time, and he runs no better than midfield.
Yes he will get better with practice, and will come to explore the full limits of the car. Richard Houghton is another example. Front running car with a novice driver.
It's obvious that their taste for cars was set higher so that they grew into them instead of driving the ring off a 30 year old hack before moving on......
Some of the safety points may be why these people chose the car they did. I want alot of grip, and a lot of speed. All 2wd do not give me both........

And Nathan, you have to work a 4wd also to get anywhere. It is not the picnic you perceive.
If you do not drive them properly, the won't turn. Get it wrong on the exit and they will spit you off. Brake to hard and the thing will lock up and spin you round.
Not that I know whether you have driven a 4wd in anger or not for a full event and not a putt around a test track, but I can say it was a big eye opener for me to drive one compared to the Gemini. I was scared ****less the first time I drove one.
150kph was way fast enough for me.

That sounds like a great argument for why novices shouldn't be in 4WD's, you have just mentioned Langdon has put it off 3 times, you were scared s**tless in one.

Anyone can go fast, just bury your foot and hang on. But to control a car on tight and demanding courses requires skill, no matter what car you are in.

Yeah but you must be forgetting how much harder it was to get the Gemini up to a 'dangerous' speed, than the Mazda. Yeah if people want to kill themselves they will, if the want to launch a 180b off the top of the mineshaft they will, but lets not go handing them a loaded weapon to do it with!!!