No Notes/No looking rules in supp regs.

[Factor]

Following on from Fiona’s suggestion (in a seperate thread) that this issue be canvassed publicly I thought I would do just that.

Firstly I don’t wish to debate the issue of notes or no notes, that is an entirely valid discussion but one for another place and time. This discussion is simply about how the regs need to look to deal with the issue of a “blind” rally, and what is enforceable and what isn’t.

As I alluded to in the Captains Flat Regs thread, the approach I think that has some validity is:

1. What “mischief” is the key thing you are trying to prevent
2. What is enforceable in practical terms (and as a corollary – what isn’t)
3. What “unintended consequences” do we need to be aware of
4. How should we enforce the final product


Point 1 – Mischief

I would think that what we are trying to achieve here is, in practical terms, a playing field that is at least a bit close to level. Every competitor has an advantage over some others in terms of “home ground” or simply years of competing on a stage. – No rule will ever be able to wipe the head knowledge of drivers/navigators. If you accept that premise then what we are left with is restricting the advantage to head knowledge and ensuring that extensive detailed notes that would provide a speed advantage over a substantial part of a stage are not used.

In point 2 below I discuss enforcement and in terms of course entry prohibitions. One of the “mischiefs” that that rule treats is the desire to keep people from fanging around the forest – where they shouldn’t be bringing the sport into disrepute. I think that mischief is best managed by the application of the civil law. If you are allowed to be on a road, in terms of Forestry or who ever else owns the patch of dirt, then you are allowed there. If you are not allowed there and get caught then I think that’s a bring the sport into disrepute type issue. If you are allowed there but you are driving like a dill then same story applies. And I think we can include something that requires a disclosure to the CoC of any recent “trouble with the law” to make at least a self disclosure provision.

Point 2 Practical Enforcement

A law which can’t be practically enforced is worse than no law at all. (paraphrased from Lord Denning I think). So if we take the course entry prohibition issue first

Any competitor who is found on the rally course 4 weeks prior to the event will be reported to the stewards. Maximum penalty may include exclusion from the event.

This clause has had a bit of a run with the obvious issues being:
• How can I stay away from roads if I don’t know where they are
• What if my employment requires me to traverse these roads.
• What if there is another motorsport event three weeks prior that requires me to drive on the roads – even if in the opposite direction etc etc.

Attempting to “ban people from an undeclared geographic location is probably unenforceable, almost impossible to do as a matter of rule writing and simply results in unresolvable stress.

Pacenotes shall be considered as notes in any form, other than the official documents or maps issued or authorised by the Organisers. Observers may be placed along the route to ensure compliance with this regulation.

This one is also a little bit unenforceable. For example say I know a particular corner which is legendary on the particular stage – lets call it “JS’s upside down in the creek in the RX2” corner – or “Billy Smith’s Bridge on snake track” or any one of a number of these. I write in my road book – BEWARE JS Upside Down Corner. That entry would breach the reg as she is written above. Equally what if we always get caught out on a particular corner on upper Cobargo road, no one else does and there have been no big prangs there but we know it’s a problem for us. I don’t think we want to prevent people writing that sort of reminder in the road book:

So whatever we come up with as a rule really needs to allow for:

• Entry of notorious and/or head knowledge locations onto the road book or into any other form of notes
• For those that must do it (and I don’t like it but I recognise that some people do) we need to permit the reinterpretation of tulips into pace note speak, eg L 5 > into R2 <, or something similar.

Point 3 Unintended consequences

The reg will need to allow for on the run notes, e.g. location of a broken car, adding some caution signs to a corner that is used twice and you have a moment on the first time through. It comes back to ensuring that you don’t have a reg that stops the positives and reasonable actions.


Point 4 – How to enforce

Easier said than done but I think

• That the concept of area entry prohibition is almost pointless.
• That the reg should provide for all of the positive issues above e.g. writing in notorious corners
• The only permissible form of adjunct notes should be in the issued road book and the issued road book only. Thus any judgement call is only on the road book document – any other note is a clear breach
• That the reg should provide for a judgement call on the part of the CoC, ie make the CoC a judge of fact and to supplement that give officials to power to maybe seize the suspect items and replace them with a “virginal” road book. (that of course would require the official to have a few spare road books, so that has its problems).


CONCLUSION

I have some ideas on how to draft a reg that meets most of the issues, but I welcome observations. But please not on the merits of pace notes and no pace notes or reinterpreting Tulips etc etc., just the issue of regs for when there are no pace notes.

Over to you kind interested and edumacated people.

[fro]

Originally Posted by Factor

But please not on the merits of pace notes and no pace notes or reinterpreting Tulips etc etc., just the issue of regs for when there are no pace notes.

Please note that this moderator will be strictly enforcing Andrew's intent here. Discussion on these related issues should be taken into a different thread. Off-topic posts in this thread will be deleted.

I will think over the current wording, and it's assumed intention, and try to arrive at something more "suitable". I feel (as Andrew has ponited out) that having an enforceable rule should be one the key aims.

More to come.

[smee]

Maybe in regards to forest usage you state an area that encompasses all stages.
If someone organises a picnic out there within those times and areas specified, then only one thing could be on their mind.

Work related instances may be sufficient to say to the director by email or such that within work practices I will be in this area. It is not my intent to gain any advantage over other competitors through being in these areas.

Living out there, then that comes down to head knowledge and nothing can really be done about this. Total Recall type machinery may be used in the future though....

I will add as I come up with bits.

[Spac]

I think Factor's post is brilliant - but I may have a skewed point of view because I agree with where he's heading.

He's summed up the issues, and the problems in addressing them (both philosophically and workably).

The only thing I'm a bit rubbery on, is whether pre-event notations should be allowed. But the realist in me says that it'd be impossible to enforce, so I'm happy to let it go.

[Julie]

Originally Posted by Factor

[• The only permissible form of adjunct notes should be in the issued road book and the issued road book only. Thus any judgement call is only on the road book document – any other note is a clear breach


Over to you kind interested and edumacated people.

I'm not edumacated but listening to the discussions, I think the point Factor made (retained in quote above) is where the attention needs to be placed.

We all accept you can't extract what is already in someone's brain to make a 'level' playing field so the only enforcement that I can see must occur on the day of the event, and that makes the subject of that enforcement the 'authorised instructions' issued to competitors.

I remember (when I was young) watching Greg Day get his roadbook just before an event and then Greg hibernating in the car with stacks of highlighters to mark up his road book (in what ever means suited his style). This seemed a reasonable practice to look out for and highlight any particular areas to watch out for. There isn't enough time to rewrite an entire road book in your own style before the event, and there is always the chance that someone will make a mistake with their notes.

So allow people to write/ colour/ draw whatever thay want in the roadbook and the enforceable element then becomes on anyone with a different book/ notes from the authorised one.

I've only done one rally and already I'm remembering corners!!

So I don't believe you should do anything about keeping people off or away from the course. If they have local knowledge fine, it is still a matter of how well they (the driver and co-driver) work together as a team and communicate what ever information it is they have at their disposal. Remember sometimes too much information can be a disadvantage as people can be overly cautious.

Regs should address that only the authorised instructions issued on the day of the event are to be used. All notes are to be written in the roadbook and no other book/ paper is allowed.

My unedumacted perspective.
Julie

[tortfeaser]

I've not read through the thread properly (but I will) but I'd like something concrete as an outcome of this thread that I can use for the August ACT series event regs. So whatever we/Factor comes up with will go in the regs.

[AV1611]

Mr Smee

I regularly picnic out at Lowden Forest Park - the Water Wheel, and it is right in the midst of the stages for the Captains Flat Rally. You stated that "only one thing could be on their mind". That may be true, but since when does writing Supp Regs give you the right to police my love life?

[tortfeaser]

OK, I've read what Andrew and others have posted. I don't think I agree with the foundation statement

Originally Posted by Factor

If you accept that premise then what we are left with is restricting the advantage to head knowledge and ensuring that extensive detailed notes that would provide a speed advantage over a substantial part of a stage are not used.

I've got a problem with the 'extensive and detailed' and 'substantial' bits. I think that extensive notes over a small part of a stage and not detailed notes over a substantial part of a stage fall outside what is acceptable. But I think the direction we're heading in addresses both those cases.

I agree with the premise that it is too hard to write and enforce a reg that limits forest access in the months before an event. It is undesirable, sure, but fraught with difficulty to punish. While there's an advantage to be gained in having a look, it is limited if you can't have notes on your looking available to you in the event.

To that end, limiting the info available to that given by the organisers is sensible. Adding notation to that should be acceptable, but if you've written notes while having a pre-event look, there's nothing preventing you from transcribing those into the road book. It would be impossible to write and enforce a reg that tries to restrict the manner in which road book-entered notes are made.

One solution would be to limit the time available to write in the road book. This is likely to be criticised - I know I spend a fair bit of time marking up a road book with a lot more entries than other navs. If you cut the time available for me to do this I'd have to change the info I write. But I think its the only solution.

So maybe don't restrict having a look and give road books to competitors a max of 1/2 hour before their due start time. (Collect it from the first control.) Inspect cars for notes in any form other than in the road book.

[Tony Sullens]

I am all for what has been said.
No notes and only the road book allowed.
Limit the time to write in the road book works too.

BUT, We need to have a fairly comprehensive set of "other info" handed out at documentation the night before.

Things like the length of the stages - How many stages to service - etc.
I have been to rallies, been first car on the road, had no idea of the stage lengths etc until just before the start.
Tyres, fuel etc have to be worked out and service crew sent on their way.

This is not a problem if you have been there before. but can be a worry to a newby who happens to be car 1.

This way the road book can be handed out 1/2 hr before the due out time, giving enough time to checkover but not enough time to cheat.

Anyone caught with notes, make an example of them, then others won't be tempted to follow suit.

Tony

[tortfeaser]

Good stuff Tony. All that info should be in the service instructions which can be handed out as early as when you complete doco.

[Mike Cherry]

At the RMV last year we had 2 parts to the road book, part A contained all of the information & documents that normally precede the route instructions, that could be handed out at doco and the road book at an appointed time, relative to your start time at the start TC. Too easy.

[Paul]

I'm disappointed that Mr Neale Jnr has not got on the box as yet

[Mike Cherry]

What Karl said.

[smee]

Originally Posted by tortfeaser

One solution would be to limit the time available to write in the road book. This is likely to be criticised - I know I spend a fair bit of time marking up a road book with a lot more entries than other navs. .

I seem to remember that this used to be the way.
A half hour max before your due out time and your book was issued.
It made a navs life a little harder in having to mark it up with possible changes prior to the start of SS1, but this sport is about a test of car, driver and co-driver working together as a team. This last part seems to have gone out the window lately, especially in the ARC with no stage longer than 20 or so km.

I am another one to back up Karls suggestions.
If you know the area of use and you intentionally venture out that way, then there can only be one thought on your mind.
And now I've got a horid image stuck in my head you using that water wheel. Thanx Ben.............

[Julie]

Originally Posted by Karl Willett

[LIST][*]Issue the roadbook at the first time control 2 minutes before start time. It's the way it should be done on a secret event. .

Maybe a bit more time should be allowed so changes to the roadbook (if any) can be recorded?

But the general feeling of no roadbook until just before the event and some form of penalty for non compliance seems to be gaining a consensus from those participating in this discussion.

Julie