Not interested...

[fro]

Oh, and I'm standing by, ready to split this thread, so feel free to divert onto this tangent, and I'll split away if there's a critical mass of discussion.

[Bogan]

I don't think there's any need to give the "Not interested" bit its own thread any more, he seems to have snapped out of that OK now.

T.

[Ric Cary]

Originally Posted by fro

Why? Why not have it open. As you pointed out above, a good quality pacenote event, close to Sydney, only attracted 18 entries?



Why? The two pace-noted rallies that I can think of in the last 12 months (Bathurst Clubman and Shakedown) hardly seemed to capture the interest of the masses? They didn't even capture the interest of the "pointy-end" competitors.

I'm anti-pacenote personally, but am genuinely interested in what the motivation is for pace-note at below ARC level. And the answer shouldn't just be "So you can gain experience in pace-noting"...

My thoughts are that dates conspire against events, It has been my opinion for a long time that we have to many separate events and to small a competitor and official pool to sustain them, the days of jumping in your daily driver and whipping up to Carlingford with ya mate to run rally of the Hills on Friday night and then backing up on Saturday night at a club event are long long gone, rules, population,lack of forests,costs, etc etc have conspired against that. I really don't see the point of having separate events for each championship. we aren't out rubbing paint off each other like the roundy roundy boys so back markers/ slower cars are not an issue. and the added economic clout we could bring to bear with 100+ car fields at 6 or 8 or 10 combined events must be taken into consideration we may even have regional centres offering us facilities or incentives to bring the show to their town.
Pace notes like em or hate em are coming to State chamionship events,not the whole championship but certainly 1 or 3 events in the series, it may not be next year but they are coming. Personally I like them and I believe that many other competitors do also.I don't believe they should be compulsory at any event nor do I believe that there is any problem with running cars on notes and road books over the same course as long as judicious seeding is used, the argument will no doubt be raised that if you want to be up the pointy end you will have to use notes, but the same could be said about new Tyres, Jungle Juice fuels,Turbo 4wd and anything else you haven't got at any particular time. Those who can afford those items will run them and those who can afford the extra time that notes may require will do so. As I believe we have proven with the Shakedown it is not to difficult to get a pacenoted event of State Championship length done in a day, I would think that Kam Bakers Taree event could also be comfortably run in the same format ie Note in the morning compete in the Afternoon/ Evening. Pacenoted events are certainly more work for both the Organisers and the Officials but personally I believe they offer a better more marketable product for the competitor and the series.

[tortfeaser]

Originally Posted by fro

I must get around to reading that someday...

Hell no. What a painful read that was. And I've done Tolstoy, I know pain.

[Buerckner]

Originally Posted by tortfeaser

Hell no. What a painful read that was.

Yeah, it was probably the worst "Classic" that I've read also.

[Darren]

It is getting more difficult and more expensive to rally. Time is another enemy depending upon your priorities. Unfortunately there is no turning the clock backwards (not even for that critical 20 second time jump Tort reminded everyone of - well, everyone who ever broke a car). Its a real shame that you cant win outright in a car worth a few thousand anymore - hell, you probably wont even be allowed to COMPETE if you've only spent a few thousand on car prep! It really has turned into a ridiculously expensive sport.

Its easy to lose interest and impossible to rationally argue against the logic. The facts are there in black and white (usually with a dollar sign in front of them). The only thing that can be said is that if you let all the contributing issues consume you then YOU miss out on the fun and if you arent having fun there's really no point - time to find another sport. For me I cant find anything else that gives me the 'grin factor' that rallying does so "I'll be back" and maybe Jme will be too....

[Ausrally]

Rallying is expensive. but it always was. Whilst some may have enjoyed rallying for a few thousand. Many spend much more.

When I started in rallying, in 1976, everyone complained about the cost then. I really think its a bit relative to your circumstances, but there is little doubt there are more constraints today, but lets look at reality.

In 1982 we had 2 works Escorts and two works Datsuns. The rest of us had cars of variying degrees of preparation and cost. My Escort cost me $6000 to buy and I spent much more on it than that to run the State championship. an entry fee for a a state round was about $350 and a SP52 Dunlop cost about $75. I bought 40 of them to do the 82 2GO!

The factory BDA's sold for 20 grand each. They were the most expensive rally cars of the day and only a very few could afford them.

In reality it was about 3 times more than the average rally car. So if your car owns you 40k today then a works one should be worth about 120k. About what Subaru has sold their Group N cars for in recent times.

State rounds were about 400k of competitive and it cost about $1000 to do a State rounds.

I see the biggest difference now is that more competitors can somehow afford ex ARC or top level cars as they get handed down and run em in state rounds etc. Although we have overall less competitors, I believe the quality of the cars is better and the overall disparity betweem them is less.

Ric make some good points. The sport needs to consolidate events in order not to burn out the people that have to run them. I recall we used to have just under 60 rallies a year in NSW.

All of the cars now since we got rid of Group G look the part and are generally presentable so maybe a rethink of rallying along the lines of consolidating events is worth thinking about.

The older cars we drove lasted longer and we didnt drive em as fast so they cost less to fix as well.

If you crashed your Escort Warren Ridge would fix it for $1500. Now he can't put a front spoiler on an Evo 6 for that.

$ 1500 was a lot of money and it was hard to find and a lot of pople left the sport if the rolled their cars etc. Same today if most roll their cars then its goodbye for some.

Yes its expensive now but it always was!

We do have some good alternatives like drifting etc. I think there is a great case for running a hybird drift/rally event at racetracks where the costs can be controlled and specators can come and watch and pay to do it. Drifting is one of the fastest growing sports in popularity so why are not the rally guys taking notice? Look at it closley it has all of the attributes of rallying!.

Why could we not hold a rally at say Eastern creek, with tar and gravel and make it a fantastic spectacle?

[Mathew Boorman]

Originally Posted by Ausrally

Drifting is one of the fastest growing sports in popularity so why are not the rally guys taking notice? Look at it closley it has all of the attributes of rallying!.

Why could we not hold a rally at say Eastern creek, with tar and gravel and make it a fantastic spectacle?

Thats just the sideways part. Drifting events seem much closer to a Khanacross or a Rallysprint, which I would consider a 'bit of fun' as shakedown and practice for the 'real thing'. Of course if there was such events run at low cost for competitors, maybe it would be good, and maybe get more people into the real thing. Of course I mean running parrallel tarmac and dirt events for different set of competitors that is. Gravel work as a support event for the dorifto boyz.

[craig n]

i reckon that n.s.w state should go to pacenotes . Maybe keep clubman blind.

[Damo]

But why? I notice there hasnt been any attempts to answer Fro's question yet.

Why? The two pace-noted rallies that I can think of in the last 12 months (Bathurst Clubman and Shakedown) hardly seemed to capture the interest of the masses? They didn't even capture the interest of the "pointy-end" competitors.

I'm anti-pacenote personally, but am genuinely interested in what the motivation is for pace-note at below ARC level. And the answer shouldn't just be "So you can gain experience in pace-noting"...

As I see it, the only real issue with NSW rallying is the lack of newbies taking up the sport and therefore, smaller & smaller fields. Surely introducing pacenotes is just another hurdle for potential newcomers to get across?

Edit - cant spell...

[Marcus]

Originally Posted by Damo

But why? I notice there hasnt been any attempts to answer Fro's question yet.



As I see it, the only real issue with NSW rallying is the lack of newbies taking up the sport and therefore, smaller & smaller fields. Surely introducing pacenotes is just another hurdle for potential newcomers to get across?

Edit - cant spell...

I'd dispute that. Pacenoting after finally doing one is a step ahead in the thing that most people do this sport for ....

FUN.

And I think that even doing as other countries are doing, have a pace noted event with no reconnoence (sp) is the way of the future for lower level events or the Shakedown's morning recon / afternoon rally format. I'm afraid that the absolute fun factor of pace notes beats blind.

And as an entry level, I think they are more relavent. You see, the casual fan is exposed to pace notes on TV coverage and they have some sort of understanding that pace notes are part of the sport. Try explaining a blind rally to a casual fan and your more likely to get a blank WTF look.

Oh okay there is a some learning to do but you know the other thing I found? I got a co-driver in because of pace notes. He found pace notes to be better as it involved him in the event to a far greater degree and he felt like he contributes to the result. And really it took half a stage and we both got the swing of it.

You have an idea what's coming up, you can commit that bit more.... skills like road reading arent ruled out tho, they are helped and enhanced.

The Shakedown really is the best format for beginners now and it needs to be given a better date with less clashes and promotion to get the field it deserves. MAybe even become part of a pacenotes series if other clubs also try out the general format.

I'd even suggest the pace notes series to be run by a organising body and not CAMS. Now I dont mean like AMSAG, still have the rallies CAMS approved just the series and the standing regulations to the series organised by a group or a person outside of CAMS. Keep to the usual Schedule R.

Needs some thought but some thing like that could be made highly attractive, have some freedom to move and try new things and ideas.

The current system isnt working, this seems to be true. So how about taking this round table and creating somethign a bit different? It might work, it might not but it's worth a shot

[fro]

Thanks, Marcus.

You've actually attempted to answer part of the question. I'm not convinced it's enough of an answer, but it's a darn good start.

[Marcus]

Originally Posted by fro

Thanks, Marcus.

You've actually attempted to answer part of the question. I'm not convinced it's enough of an answer, but it's a darn good start.

I'll be honest - I want more pace noted events and I am now highly biased in this direction. If that means finding a way outside of the regular system, then why not, or even help get it going?

The important thing that if everyone comes up with the best idea ever, it means nothing unless people like... well me arent willing to put our cars where our mouths are and support the idea.

So yeah, a good idea and then competitors following through. Two things I think will go a hell of a long way to making a positive change. I think... if it's competitor driven it's got a better chance of succeeding. Even more if it's about having fun.

I stress fun and not value. Who rallies because it's good value?

Edit : I think I'm diverting from answering your question into maybe possible solutions to getting what I want.... altho I'm not sure that the two aint interconnected.

[fro]

Originally Posted by Marcus

I stress fun and not value. Who rallies because it's good value?

Hmmm, but lets not get value and affordability confused.

Fun and affordable. Great. I go rallying because it's affordable. Carrera Cup might be more fun. I'll never know, I can't afford it.

Heck, I'm sure flying to the moon is a barrel of monkeys, but I'll never afford it, so it becomes irrelevant to me...

[Marcus]

Originally Posted by fro

Hmmm, but lets not get value and affordability confused.

Fun and affordable. Great. I go rallying because it's affordable. Carrera Cup might be more fun. I'll never know, I can't afford it.

Heck, I'm sure flying to the moon is a barrel of monkeys, but I'll never afford it, so it becomes irrelevant to me...

It goes without saying that one of the problems that when your spending money on things you dont want to even if you can afford it, the fun factor goes down the toilet.

I see competitors complain about costs and I will admit that it's been ten years since I really did a lot of events and the car I run now has a higher per event cost that I used to have- still, even with the car factored in, costs do seem to have gone up a lot.

So I suppose I should modify myself and say I emphasis FUN and not value, but I realise value has a bearing on the Fun. Value being relative to everyone, what someone may pay for an event may be completely unacceptible to me.

However, the more fun you have, the more value you may want to atttibute as a result too.

On the other hand it is late and I think I could be dribbling on as a result and not being entirely co-herent.