Not interested...

[Bobesh]

Originally Posted by Marcus

And this pace noted event in August, what's the details for that? I want to try that one out.

There is a pacenoted event scheduled for August 20 in Buladelah:

145km in total, 100km competitive (8 stages)
4 stages ran twice.
reccie on Saturday - up to 3 passes allowed, each loop of
4 stages should take +/- 1 hour to do the reccie.

rally on Sunday, 1st car starts 8:30am, 1st car finishes 12:40

[tortfeaser]

Who is running that event? I'm keen.

[Ric Cary]

Originally Posted by tortfeaser

Who is running that event? I'm keen.

Graham Humphries

[gaz914]

I can't afford to go rallying at this point, so I support rallying by being an official.

By volunteering to do a road closure, etc, basically I am hoping to get a decent place to watch the cars

What do I want to see as a spectator?
Cars being driven faster than they can go by guys/gals with some talent!

IMHO the 4WDs are OK to watch when the ARC level competitors run them but many times I am underwhelmed by the spectacle when they are run by the struggling privateer.

I'm not trying to knock the people "having a go" - good on you for getting out there.

Why do we need 4WD rally cars at all?
Wouldn't the spectacle be sooo much better with 2WD cars being driven harder?

Although I got out of rallying when PRC came in, I can see the sense in not going back to Group G rules.

If we look at successful motorsport in any part of the world, I suspect there is a simple formula (but not the ONLY formula):

1. The cars have to look like they are based on a production vehicle.
2. The cars have to look like they have been "hotted up" compared to a production vehicle (ie they have to look like a racecar).
3. The performance of the vehicles have to be similar (within classes)
4. The start-up and running costs have to match the amount of money the category generates (ie if it costs $250 000 to build a car plus the same to run it for a season, then unless there is major manufacturer support, etc then the series is going to be toast).
5. There has to be a successful "feeder" series where newbies can get in for not too much money and drive older/slighter slower versions of the top equipment.

I see the current scene as being pretty poor as the main entrants (again not knocking the competitors - they are just responding to the rules) are 30 year old Datsuns of some type or other.

Where are the modern cars?
Nowhere because PRC says you can't have any real mods, therefore they aren't as fast as an "old clunker".

Young people don't want to watch cars they don't recognise (they weren't born then) going steadily around some dirt roads.

What they want is to see some "action" and that means sideways action and maybe a few crashes.

I don't imagine building an 1600 to be a decent competitive thing is all that cheap. No-one wants to crash it because getting parts is too hard.

Now the Excel series is a good start.
What about a whole truckload of 2WD Pulsars, Corollas, Lancers, 323s, etc that have mods allowed that make them "look" like a rally car (think spoilers, flares, etc) and let them have engine freedoms (maybe power to weight?) that means the driver feels like the thing is faster than stock.

Maybe that would attract the younger drivers without it having to cost them big money?

cheers
Gaz

[Spac]

Lots of talk about modifying the sport to appeal to newbies. Stuff like pushing people into newer cars, or making it easier to watch..

Wrong.

What we need to do is leave the sport alone, and simply make it easier to get people into cars and competing.
Look at the bare minimum it takes to put your arse in the nav's seat nowdays:
Lecture;
$200 worth of licence and manual;
$100 worth of helmet;
$100+++ for half the entre fee...

Remember, this isv assuming you know someone wh trusts you, and just to nav once, and is before ARCom's wonderful apparel rules come in...

The sport is f#$ked because it's so damn difficult and expensive to enter, and so expensive to remain in.
I know all of the excuses that ARCom trots out, but the reasons don't matter: Rallying in NSW (and, I believe, the rest of the country) has been declining the whole time I've been involved in it. We hardly get any true newbies turning up, and we can't keep the competitors we've got.
A lot of people have tried hard to push it in the right direction, but you can only push the turd so far up the hill while other people are pouring water on it...

[claude]

Originally Posted by gaz

What about a whole truckload of 2WD Pulsars, Corollas, Lancers, 323s, etc

Biggest problem with ALL those cars is they are all FWD.
Unfortunately, the majority of competitors (me included ) aren't interested in running a front wheel drive rally car.(unless the back wheels are driving too !)

Now... if you could find something late model, fast, plentiful, priced right, RWD and be able to run in CAMS's well thought out PRC category......
Then you would see some action

[Rally Angel]

Originally Posted by Spac

I know all of the excuses that ARCom trots out, but the reasons don't matter: Rallying in NSW (and, I believe, the rest of the country) has been declining the whole time I've been involved in it. We hardly get any true newbies turning up, and we can't keep the competitors we've got.
A lot of people have tried hard to push it in the right direction, but you can only push the turd so far up the hill while other people are pouring water on it...

Here, here. I agree with you on this on, Spac. The sport is expensive from the beginning until the end and several of us are reaching the point where the money and politics are just not worth it anymore.

SA is experiencing a decline in local competitors and quality events. We have 4 rounds in our state championship this year. However, current rumours circulating are their may be a few top interstate drivers entering (i.e Eli Evans, Roman Watkins) due to our pace-noting. With the budget these guys have, how on earth can anyone else compete on the same level?

The few newbies who come into the sport in SA just take out bank loans and buy 4wd's. There isn't really any point to buying a rwd vehicle in SA if you want to be competitive at the top of the field. Some of these newbies don't even have driving experience of any sort other than driving to work etc but they think they can compete with the best of them and be a top competitor straight away.

For comparison to the NSW State Series, our first round on the 1st of July is as follows:

Total of 260km comprising of 10 special stages (110km competitive).
If registered* for the SARC, the entry fee is $400.00 (if you get it in early bird deadlines otherwise it is $450.00).
Pacenoting is done on the Sunday prior to the event (or the Friday if you apply with the directors).

* Registering for the SARC is a once off annual fee of $100.00

[Bogan]

Bare minimum for a nav.:

$60 single use licence (or $46 for 2NS for an introductory rally).
$0 borrow a helmet (or else you'll be up for the price of an intercom setup as well).
$150 entry fee (Bay Starters '05 and Shakedown '06).

Under $200 will get you into the nav's seat for an introductory rally, in a real rally car if you know a driver who has one and wants to play. I know, I did it with Beth last year.

No one ever said it was meant to be cheap, but it doesn't have to cost the earth.

As for driving, you have to do khanacrosses first as OLTs anyway, and they're just a 2NS, day membership, entry fee $50 or so and a car and helmet. Cheaper if you turn up to Sutton Road in your daily driver.

T.

[Dirty Deeds Rally]

Originally Posted by gaz914

What they want is to see some "action" and that means sideways action and maybe a few crashes.

Now the Excel series is a good start.

'Excel' and 'action' in the same context

I agree that newer cars will probably appeal more to the younger audience, but I'm out there to have FUN, and sideways is a whole lot easier (awaits backlash from FWD guys) in a RWD 'old clunker'. How many newer 'cheaper' cars are RWD? The number 0 springs to mind... An unspectacular FWD is even more boring to watch than an unspectacular 4WD!

I rally an old clunky Stanza and parts are CHEAP. It's great fun and seeing as I'm not ever going to get manufacturer backing to take on the WRC I'm not going to lose sight of why we're in the sport in the first place. In my garage sits a set of works replica flares - can I rally regularly with them on the car? You'd think so considering you used to be able to rally with them on (not just Group G either before we go into that one again).

I think relaxing PRC regs with body requirements (ie allow flares and spoilers - maybe with a 'no d!ckhead wing' clause attached along the lines of - "if the scrutineers deem your wing to be borrowed from your cousin or brother-in-law's fully sik supra you must remove it") will make cars look tougher without actually doing much (if anything!) to the driveability of the car. I think keeping rough guidelines for engines (same make, no. of cylinders, relax induction rules for people who want to spend $$$) and still compete in similar classes on engine capacity (maybe add classes for induction type?). You're still going to find the same guys are going to be the top of whatever class they're in. If you want to go faster, just drive faster - that makes a good driver, not just the car. Molly Taylor consistenly whips people her Gemini has no right to beat, but she's a good driver. Dave King made most of the 4WD guys look like grandmas in his 200B. (both cars RWD might I add...hehe)

AMSAG seem to have a pretty good grasp on how to make rallying more exciting without destroying the feel of the cars, just a bit more grunt, some body mods allowed and fun to watch. Those guys have the right idea - keep costs down and fun up (unlike the almighty Confederation Against Motor Sport). With this kind of flair for excitement and the substantial amount of extra backing CAMS has the ability to throw behind the sport, there's no reason why rallying can't be enticing to newbies.

Wake up CAMS, I'm a young competitor who thinks you have no idea - no wonder no newbies are coming into the sport, they need a helping hand to find out how it all works, not one that just reaches into their pockets and takes all their money before kick-off.

[Spac]

I was almost gonna start a new thread for this, but it's relevant enough here:

Rallying vs Vintage Motocross.

The MX bikes.
I bought a bike on Egay for $605 (it's a 1977 YZ125, for those of us that care). Spent a bit of time and money making it race-worthy - currently owes me just over $1000, with new tyres, chain & sprockets and new piston & ring.

I bought another bike (1980 YZ250G) for $800. This one needed a bit more work, but still owes me less than $1500.
Both bikes are as competitive as anything else in their respective classes.

Licences are $220/year, with a free manual and no lecture. Day licences are $45/event (event if it's a multi-day event) and are available at all non-national events, without any drama.

I've got about $1200 worth of riding gear (not top of the line stuff, but no rubbish either). The minimum acceptable would be around $500 worth of gear.

I've done three events on the 250, and two on the 125. In that time, I've changed the oils and lubed the chains and not much else. Even the $120 rear tyre on the back of the 250 is showing virtually no sign of wear.

The two bikes fit easily into the back of the XF ute, and I'd be lucky to use 10 litres of fuel in both bikes at each event. I can load everything up myself, and then drive to an event myself without a drama.

I can enter every race that my bikes are eligible for, at each event - so something like 20 races/event if I was keen (and fit) enough. No extra charge.

Scrutineering is never a hassle.

In the last three events, I've seen one person carted off in an ambulance, and the helicopter called in once.

If you're not competiting, you can stay at home guilt-free.

One of the Historic commissioners is an active participant on the most popular forums, and is accessable and willing to listen (although, there's not much to listen to because the rules are pretty well right).

The rally car.
I paid $1250 for the world's ugliest 1600 and got a super bargain.
Had to put it on the borrowed car trailer to get it home.
Had to spend $20 on aerosol paint to get it looking acceptable.
Fitted a seat that owed me $75 (another baragin) for the nav.
Fitted my harnesses that expire at the end of this year (replacement cost: ~$700/pair).
Then had to trailer it out to Dickson and pay $200 to put three months rego on it.

Had to have an arguement and jump through all sorts of hoops before the CAMS log-book could be changed into my name.
The essential clothing is around $150 worth, but that figure is about to rise by a huge margain (thanks CAMS!).

Each event's entry fee costs $200 at least, usually over $330.
At each event, I need a navigator, and (almost always) a service crew.
I need to take at least two cars to every event (rally car and service car) - one way or another, this costs a lot in petrol money.
The car chews through ~$300 worth of tyres each rally.
It's also taken $350 worth of diff to be remotely competitive in it's class.
It needs ~$500 worth of carbies to be half-way competitive in it's class.

Scrutineering is usually a pain.

In the last three events, I've seen one person carted off in an ambulance, and the helicopter called in once.

If you're not competiting, and you can stay at, you're the biggest jerk to ever walk the face of the earth.

The rules are rubbish, but it's damn near impossible to get them changed because the powers that be are all-but-invisible - and there's no clear channel to have your complaints heard anyhow... If you do get though that, then you'll probably be dismissed off-hand anyhow.



I'm as addicted to rallying as anyone, but I get a very similar buzz out of racing the dirt bikes and it just costs so much less...
Rallying is just so price uncompetitive - and I'm not just talking about money... "Rallying" survives despite itself - despite the rules, despite the controlling body, despite the lack of direction, despite the self-interested forces tearing it apart - it survives because the competitors help each other out so much - from JS or KW virtually giving away tyres, to Jen teaching Damo how to spray paint, to Simey welding stuff up, to Thomas and Michael virtually giving away their labour... While this is great (and a big part of why I'm involved), "rallying" should not be depending on it...

I sat down and worked out that it was going to cost me $500 all-up to do the Crawford river Classic on the June long weekend (it's THE event of the year in NSW).
It was going to cost me ~$1800 to do Bega if I pay the entry fee and shared some costs (getting down there, accom, etc) with Anna.

[Saru]

Originally Posted by Spac

The sport is f#$ked because it's so damn difficult and expensive to enter, and so expensive to remain in.

If you mean special-stage dirt rallying (SSDR), then even at club level, isn't SSDR the highest point in a continuum that starts at Touring Assemblies/HRA/Historic Rally Club style of events? Aren't they (much) cheaper?

From the driving side, aren't khanacrosses and dirt/grass motorkhanas a (much) cheaper style of thing?

Isn't saying that it's too expensive to get into special-stage rallying like saying it's too expensive to get into IPRA racing?

In short - why should anyone (crazy people like Paulie excepted) start with SSDR when there are lower-cost alternatives that are 70% of the experience for 50% of the cost? Shouldn't newbies be enticed into the (much) simpler, (much) less stressful options?

EDIT: Isn't VMX closer to a khanacross in that it's run on a circuit, not cross country?

(much)

[Spac]

Despite all the derogatory stuff about 'going around in circles' as a competitor, MX and Rallying give me the same buzz - so I'm not placing any weight on the (real and unavoidable) logistical and cost factors that rallying is faced with.

You're 100% right on the TA/TRE thing, but show me a 'competitive' TRE on dirt in NSW... So by default, SSGR is the entry level....
Khanacrosses are a very good start, but there's just such a huge leap between khanas and rallies.

[Saru]

Originally Posted by Spac

You're 100% right on the TA/TRE thing, but show me a 'competitive' TRE on dirt in NSW... So by default, SSGR is the entry level....

Build it and they will come. (?)

Oh, G? Good? Great? Grumpy?

Khanacrosses are a very good start, but there's just such a huge leap between khanas and rallies.

Hence the (competitive) TA/TRE thing.

I'm having a deja vu here, but aren't there often discussions about these topics? (1) where are the newbies/it's too expensive and (2) non-SSQR* are boring/I only want to to SSKR*/pacenoted events.

With absolutely zero reflection, the issue seems to be that there's no stepping stone to SSZR*, despite there being an administrative structure in which to run it.

* I can put random letters into other people's ackronyms, too.

[DaveTrees]

Originally Posted by Spac

You're 100% right on the TA/TRE thing, but show me a 'competitive' TRE on dirt in NSW... So by default, SSGR is the entry level....

But they don't have to be ......

In Vic, the great majority of club level events are A-B timed non-special-stage events .... & don't let anyone tell you that the VCRS isn't competitive ! These are "rallies" and require a CRL or higher. Most are 50% (very simple) navigation & 50% routechart - but that's a forestry issue rather than a CAMS requirement (and may change, now that forestry are going to allow legal road closure for VCRS rounds next year, in all likelihood).

Organisationally, not much different to SS events .... but are alwys run at night to minimise public impacts/risks etc. Safety standards are quite adequate. Typical entry fee is around the $175-$200 mark. VCRS fields are generally fully subscribed & around the 50-60 cars. (in fact some say the VCRS is TOO successful, to the detriment of the VRC).

Some of the HRA's events (but not all) are run under TRE rules therefore only require a L2NS licence ... these are generally very much old-style navigation trials & while they are "competitive" & run mostly in the forest, they are not really "speed oriented" (eg. the Nightstalker this coming weekend).

It IS possible to run lower cost competitive events .... they don't all have to be daylight special stage extravaganzas.

[Saru]

Originally Posted by DaveTrees

But they don't have to be ......