Doom and Gloom and whinging

[global]

Ok Folks - although in some instances I may have added to it as well. But I have had enough. We are whinging a little to much

Sure on a few fronts the top end of our sport may have issues. But we ( the state and club competitors) do not really have a great influence over it. We are unlikely to invest in $100k plus to run a car in the ARC.

ROC also may have issues - this we have had the opportunity to influence. We have had DIRT CHEAP!!!!!!! entry fees to attend an international event for 2 or 3 years now and WE ( the state and club competitors) have not turned up. If 50 + of us ( the state and club competitors) had of turned up and created an entertaining product we may well have a different result (Eg Tourism Canberra can then show flow on = 50 cars with 8 crew each + 8 spectators each = 2400 bed nights + average spend $100 = $240k tourism value - Before you lynch me - thats how it works folks)

So We ( the state and club competitors) need to shoulder part of the blame here. Dont pass the buck, blame FIA / ARCOM / Govts anyone else. We have undersupported the event (Excepting of course the very generous Officials and Organisation peoples). We partly are getting our just desserts here...

Most people fully admit there are issues in the sport - OK how are we dealing with them? We appear to be fragmenting. Lots of little factions, little events, little classes, own agendas etc etc etc. We dont appear to be doing very well.

LETS MOVE ON FROM THE WHINGING. We need to come together as a united sport.

We have positives - We have a great sport which is unique in motorsport which at is core has a family spirit, one of coming together to help each other - perhaps demonstarted in the technical part of the website, or in people helping each other out to the wee small hours of the morning.

We have an exciting new club class in Excels which allows very cost effective close events

We have a passionate classic rally car revival happening.

We have a Rally Panel willing to listen and put everyones point of view foward.

We have great safety and competitor welfare guidlines and programs

We have the guidlines in Place for a very unique NSW championship in 2007 with a mix of events which challenges all rally aspects - Day events, night events, Pace noted, non pacenoted. This is bloody good news!!!!!!

We have great officials and a huge variety of events

And we have the individual competitors and there support teams - whose choices, decisions, spirit, effort, passion and positive (and negitive) comments influence our sport and help drive it fowards (or backwards)

My suggestions

- If we have a negitive comment then lets vent it, acknowledge it, give it an outcome we prefer and do something about changing it. Lets not dwell on it in ever decreasing circles. An ousider reading some content on this forum is going to be very turned off on our sport.

- Lets get on board and rather than add more events, lets look and combining some to get events which are larger ( Therefore better supported, easier on organisers, controllies, clubs and have the opportunity to make a dollar to reinvest in the sport) It does seem mad to me we have a 35 car event in Pt Mac this weekend and a state round in 2/3 weeks time!!!!!! in the same area!!!!!!

- If we get the opportunity to have ROC again - Why not support it - 50 + clubman cars will make a difference. IT is (or was) a very good value event.

- Lets leave the ARC to it, unless you are wanting to step up and do it, I dont think you can offer too many negititive comments on who / how / why and how much. Market Forces do apply. If they product is good enough it will be supported, if not it won't. We at this stage do not have much influence (under current structures) so lets leave the structures in play and let the market forces drive it. I believe then the future structure will change - Then We ( the state and club competitors) will be in a position to influence further.

- Lets also be charged individually with the responsibilty of introducing 2 new people to the sport each year - Service Crew, Co- drivers, Controllies, it could be anyone. Help anyone get involved - friends, neighbours, work buddies, young or old. If every team ( lets say there are 250 active cars in NSW) thats 500 more people invovled every year that makes a HUGE HUGE difference in 10 years!!!!!

Rallying is ALWAYS going to be expensive. We can only help make it VALUE FOR MONEY. It will never get a heck of an amount cheaper.

[Jme]

.... why am I thinking of Happy Gilmore's "Happy Place" with the midget riding the imaginary bull....

Yeah, there's much merit in what you say- but the reality of the situation is such that it's very difficult to divorce yourself from all the negatives. The forum's vent the angst... and I can't see that being a 100% bad thing. It's better than "talking in corners" about the same issues.

Maybe, possibly, hopefully- one of these threads might actually unite the rallyfolk of Australia, and together we can overthrow the.... nah forget it! It'll never happen.....

Go to a "happy place"...

Your probably right Global, but damn... it will take a better person than me to stay positive.

[bob moore]

going ......

[mrbob]

I'm fairly new to the sport, and don't know a lot of the history, but have read with interest the posts concerned with the future of rallying, and the apparent lack of direction from the governing body.

Originally Posted by bob moore

most of us aren't involved in the aspects of rallying that ARCOM has r00ted (i.e. ARC). Sure, we're interested, but that's different to being involved.

I have to say, I disagree slightly with this notion. As the fans who are (or at least should be) supporting the sport, shouldn't we have a say about the direction of our sport? I think that anyone who tunes into a rally on TV or goes into a forest to watch one is Involved. I agree that possibly it's not great to just have negativity on a public forum, but so far I think it's been quite restrained. Even the couple of guys who let fly at ARCom provided some suggestions, and I think it is a good thing to have passionate people having a public discussion on ways to improve things. If ARCom are smart they will be reading - and LISTENING!

I think that the fans should have their say, because collectively they (we) have the power to make or break the sport. I think it would be remiss of anyone in power in any sport to ignore what the guys at the grass roots of the sport are saying. What would the NRL do if junior footy clubs couldn't get any new players and the sport was dying? While most club guys can't see spending six figures and running an out and out ARC assault, I would assume that most people don't just say, oh I feel like trying a rally today, I'll buy an ARC team! I think that all or most of the top guys have to come through the club scene, and as such that would make us the future of the sport wouldn't it?

My 2 cents (and probably overpriced at that). DISCLAIMER: It's early on Saturday morning and I have to be at work so I usually start to babble about now. If anything doesn't make sense, blame my lack of sleep!

[Mike Cherry]

By now, one would think that the management at CAMS would have picked up on the discontent of the rally community at large.
There has been a total failure by those desingnated/contracted to lead this sport in to the future under its stewardship.
These bodies are clearly not answerable to the CAMS Board, if they were, we would not be where we are today.
The models used to establish not only the WRC but also the ARC are seriously flawed and are not financially sustainable in the medium, let alone long term.
There are serious management issues with these structures, the flow of information is restricted & guarded, the support base is regarded & treated with contempt and the funding arrangements are nothing short of disgraceful.
The fact is that CAMS needs to dismantle & restructure rallying from the top down using a business plan that is long term financially sustainable ( from the governing body right through to event organisers & clubs ), community & environmentally responsible AND competitor friendly.
This is not doom & gloom & whinging, this is what needs to happen.
The CAMS Board are capable of implementing this, but it will take pressure from within to ensure it happens.

[bob moore]

going .............

[BlueRex]

Originally Posted by bob moore

I understand what you're trying to say, mrbob, but I'm not a "fan". I'm a competitor.

With respect, I disagree. They are just spectators. They have no investment* in the sport. Therefore they don't meet my definition of "involved" - they are just "interested". Their involvement lasts only until they switch TV channels, or decide to go and watch the footy instead of a rally.

They may have no "investment" with the sport, but they are the exact group that the advertisers and sponsors have the most interest in. It's them and their buying habits that will have the most impact in attracting TV coverage, in the staging of public events and a direct influence on the amount of cash poured (or not) into the sport. Your only have to read last month's Rally Sport News to see that the attitude of the major factory participants is squarely focused on the marketing return they get from events.


c

[bob moore]

going ....

[Marcus]

Originally Posted by bob moore

Charles, you're absolutely right. 100%.

However this is going off at a tangent to the main theme: the capacity of clubs to enhance club-level rallying.

Spectactors often become competitors. Thene you better pay attention to them, because they are often the exact kind of people who come into club level rallying. The more you can get, the morely they are going to come on into the sport, be it as competitors or more likely, officals.

And if they dont liek what they see, they wont get involved. So on earth can you say they dont have any investment in the sport? It's our vested interest to pay attention to them becuase it's likely at least some are part of the future.

[erk]

Originally Posted by bob moore

I understand what you're trying to say, mrbob, but I'm not a "fan". I'm a competitor.

With respect, I disagree. They are just spectators. They have no investment* in the sport. Therefore they don't meet my definition of "involved" - they are just "interested". Their involvement lasts only until they switch TV channels, or decide to go and watch the footy instead of a rally.

*i.e. in cars, or equipment, or creating a rally, or training to be an official, or effort in working in a service crew, radio communications network or medical team (apologies to anyone I've overlooked!)

I am not suggesting that spectators are unimportant, although I think the pendulum has swung too far in accommodating them on the holy grail of commercialism. I am simply suggesting that the future of rallying rests in the hands (or should rest in the hands) of those who have an investment in the sport.

As a spectator, I'd like to know how the pendulum has swung too far in my direction. If we are talking about the ARC, I'm from Sydney and as we know (and is another topic), there is nowhere in NSW to see Australia's top line of rallying. My nearest ARC rally is the RoC and even there or at Rally Q (2 out of 3 ARC rounds I've been to this year at some cost obviously) and while those rallies have been good, I am still struggling to see how the pendulum is swinging in my favour. Long walks to limited spectator points, small ARC fields (it's lucky that I like to stick around for the piggyback events), limited facilities, long distances between the stages and service park, none of the promised improvements in relation to finding out results - still looking.......



I haven't been to a stand-alone club or State round so I can't comment on spectator numbers and I'll happily stand corrected if the spectator figures and facilities etc that I mentioned are better in these events compared to the ARC.


And others have said, spectators can be useful and can and do progress to other functions within the sport.

[bob moore]

going .........

[bob moore]

going ...........

[Bogan]

Originally Posted by erk

I haven't been to a stand-alone club or State round so I can't comment on spectator numbers and I'll happily stand corrected if the spectator figures and facilities etc that I mentioned are better in these events compared to the ARC.

Of course there's not as many spectators at sub-ARC level (with the exception of Bega which may this year have had more spectators than RoC) but get along to one and have a look. You see the people who don't have so much money (even to do a tack on event isn't cheap) but they really love the sport. They will back their schitty old Datsun or Lancer into a spectator point corner like there's no tomorrow. Some are chasing championships or parts thereof (class titles etc.) but even most of them are just out there for the love of it.

And it's free if you want to get out there and have a look.

Let me know if you're interested and you can have your own private spectator point or two for a rally in Canberra early next month .

T.

[erk]

Originally Posted by Bogan

And it's free if you want to get out there and have a look.

Let me know if you're interested and you can have your own private spectator point or two for a rally in Canberra early next month .

T.

If I'm available I'd like to have a look around under ARC level but it is a matter for me to do some juggling etc in relation to work as I work a lot of weekends.

[erk]

Originally Posted by bob moore

Let me give you two examples.

The "elite" rallies (WRC, ARC) used to test drivers' ability to drive quickly in the dark, not just in daylight. There is now very little night-time competition in these events. Why? Because night-time rallying doesn't make good TV.

Similarly, for most rallies if you make a mistake and run off the road, you're out. However, the elite rallies invented "super rally", where you can keep competing the next day if your car can be fixed. This has distorted the results of some WRC events, and will be discarded next year. Why was it introduced? To maximise the number of competitors on TV.

Just out of interest, when (ballpark figure will be fine) was the last WRC/ARC event with a major night component based in a forest as opposed to a Super Special?


As for Super Rally rules, I don't dispute that TV (mostly) and spectators at the rally had something to do with it. However there are benefits for the teams/competitors as well. Who wants to do a 2 day rally, have a fault or a crash or something early on day 1 and that's it, you go back on your trailer and go home?