Mark's Civic build

[Mark]

So, onto the next car!
I got this EG series Honda Civic off Des and Denise Collins down in Adelaide last weekend. It's a jap import with the 118kw stock motor and most of the interior that they have used as a pacenote vehicle. It even has a CAMS logbook despite not having a rollcage. Go figure.

I got a bit bored during the break between rallies and thought I'd look around for a 'retirement' rally car that doesn't cost $20K every year for the next decade. Before Spac says, "another person burnt by $WD", I'm lucky enough to know where I stand against people in similar machinery and there seems little point in spending another wad of money to go 1/2s - 1s/km faster. Well, that's how I lie to myself The idea of keeping the Evo and just doing 2 or 3 events every year wasn't particularly appealing either as sitting on the sidelines sucks/is horrifying and I had done that recently for 2 1/2 years. So, I was looking around for something that is (relatively) cheap to run, has a knowledge and support base out there. Something also to be within my ability to fix it and have a bit of tolerance for me getting something wrong without total catastrophic results though after lifting the rocker cover, I'm not entirely convinced that I'd like to take a VTec head apart...

It's always an interesting experience starting with a blank piece of paper of what the next car to choose is: While getting a big hp RWD car was inviting from a driving reward perspective, I figured it would cost as much in tyres and fuel to do as the Evo and a lot of powerful RWD cars like Silvias and late model RX-7 are heavier than the Evo and that didnt' seem to make sense. I needed something that a Forester could tow as well (preferably), and with the idea of pads lasting a whole season (we'll see), two tyres an event and a few cans of fuel then it should be good. And with there being a lot of Civic aftermarket kit in the US for cheap prices it seemed right.

I went with the new build approach as I can do everything my way and there is some therapy in there for ripping a car apart, lightening the hell of it, strengthening it in areas as appropriate and off you go. So, its going to be a bit basic at first but its going to have to have MCA suspension in the front (lesson from the Evo: adjust the suspension for speed and happiness! ) and then over time chuck the good parts in.

I weighed it the following day - last Monday - and it weighed 1160kg on the scales at Mitchell, including me and the junk I was throwing out. It comes in at an empty weight of fuel and passengers of around 1050kg - what a porker for a 1600cc. Out comes the interior - see photo - and air conditioning etc and that's about another 60kg. I haven't got Simey over yet with the liquid nitrogen but this car is loaded with insulation etc especially in the rear wheel wells and underneath. I figure between the difference in seats (10kg and 10kg of insulation and stuff) I'll be looking at an empty weight of 970kg before 22m of cage (~50kg) and seats etc go in as well as the rollcage. If I'm lucky it will end up at 1020-1030kg. Damn porker.

Ben Wilson and I chucked it on the dyno this morning and despite the chance of exhaust leaks, a crushed exhaust pipe down to 1 - 1.5" and a strange intermittent miss at idle, it managed over 95kw atw! That's still with a cat converted fitted but with extractors on it. We both thought 80 - 85kw was more realistic and I was optimistic for hitting 90kw. This matches nicely with a dyno day I organised back in 2003 I think where my friend, James Stewart's, standard Civic punched out 95kw atw. Once we stopped laughing, Peter Dowling suggested lifting the air filter box just to try and cheat a bit and because the air filter was dirty it made a bit of a difference as in the other dyno curve: 99kw atw. With Peter desperate to hit 100kw atw, we advanced the timing a smidge but it took power away from the top end so it was a no-go.

This baseline was interesting for a number of reasons because of all the effort we went to the Trueno, the best it pulled - on the same dyno but who knows how the calibration has changed - was 76kw atw with short trumpets and I ran it in a 70kw atw mode but with more torque. Comparing the tractive effort on todays effort, it peaked at around 1900 - 1950Nm, where as the Trueno punched out 2100N from checking my Excel sheet just then and the other standard Civic punched out around 2000N. It feels like a bit of a cheat in one regard: it really has low torque/urge on the road but because it does it over a wide powerband from 5K to about 7.5K it gets good power numbers due to the hp = (torq x rpm )/5252
Oh, and that's only (worn) rally tyres as well.

Despite having standard suspension it seems to go around corner quite well. It physically has a longer wheelbase than my Evo and I think it is just as wide. It's going to be interesting to setup but my current train of thought is to set it up like the Evo: no front sway bar for max grip out of the front, taily under brakes and stiffer sway bar maybe in the rear to control the body roll.

Thanks to Denis, Mikey and Blake for the chats about everything Civic-related. Thanks to the brains trust of Ben, Bede, Fro and Spac for talking and brain storming on the setup and configuration.

In the meantime, see you out there at Batemans Bay and the Natcap in the Evo so there won't be much more happening on the Civic except stripping out and seam welding the interior and maybe engine bay. There's one more little upgrade for the Evo to be done and it'll be interesting to see what difference it makes.

Mark

[fro]

I reckon you'll be using more brake pads than you think...

[vkdude]

Good luck with the build.

still got quite a few dyno sheets for the trueno if you wanted to compare them. Best I found was @ 86kw and 2000Nm. Still way behind the 99kw of the Civic. Be interesting one day to to do a back to back against each other.

Seem to remember someone (think it may have been spac) saying something along the lines of you can get a car logbooked without a cage but cages are required to run special stages . I only remembered as that was when I nearly built the commodore and didnt have the money for a cage.

[Damo]

Well done Mark, we will outnumber the Excels soon...
I demand lots of tehnical info and piccies. Post often!

[Ben Wilson]

Originally Posted by Mark

though after lifting the rocker cover, I'm not entirely convinced that I'd like to take a VTec head apart...

Strange - I have this desperate need to see how it all works....

[Swill]

1030kg gee what a porker!!!1! 15 years agp 1030kg and 100kw at the wheels would of been an outright car in the state championship. For reference Munyards last rally before he went to old blighty in the 180B, it weighed 1050kg and made 90kw and he won the last rally by 2.30 This car will be a good thing if you pull your finger out and have a bit of a go

[Spac]

This Swill character is making some good calls lately...

1030kgs is absolutely nothing to worry about. Esp when it add in crew weight, the percentage difference to the lightest cars is small.

RX-7 was ballasted up to 1290kgs - how much does the Evo weigh? Its 'natural weight' was under 1200kgs, even with heater box and power windows.

[global]

I ran endless pads good for a season or more. Disks on the other hand lasted 4 - 5 events.

Run a Carbonetic / ATS / Mfactory*** gearset and a 4.928 final drive with a LSD and thats a great leap forward.

*** I believe these are all made in the same place.

My car was 1060 with a lightpod and some fuel. Hard to get them under 1000kgs.

[Matt Dyne]

Any updates?

[Mark]

It's coming along slowly, Matt. Got about 30 hours on it so far and we're still stripping it out. I'm trying to put it at the bottom of my priority list somewhere below paperwork, housework, BBQs and social stuff.

Took me a while to figure out a good way how to split the ball joints nicely as well get out the pin on the gear shifter and removing resistant driveshafts from the hubs (thanks to Simon, my brother-in-law, for getting that out).
The Honda does have some nice features though which I discovered in trying to remove the engine. Rather than having to remove the wiring loom from everything like the starter motor and fuel injectors etc, they all unplug at two sets of plugs - one on either tower. So you unplug your three plugs at each point and just leave the wiring loom on the whole engine and gearbox.
Thanks to Denis Stevens for telling me to take the engine out from above, despite the manual saying from below.
Oh, and thanks to Richard Leitis for the load of the engine hoist...

Killed a red back hiding underneath as well.
Managed to break the front windscreen in my efforts of learning how to remove it - being the major clown effort of note so far.
So, got the fuel tank out tonight which was all easy. The back end is almost ready to start attacking with the wire brush on the angle grinder. There is a serious load on insulation on the underneath of this car, compared with the Evo and both cars are of the same age. It's going to be another fun Christmas break...

Despite that 99.6kw, the exhaust was only a 50mm ID exhaust and the significant crush down by the fuel tank got down to about 38mm OD, on a 90 degree bend. Which was interesting. My thoughts right now are to go with just a 2 1/4" exhaust down the track. If a 38mm crushed exhaust can still allow it go like that - though logically it starts to drop off by the 'pants' dyno at about 7,500 a bit - then I think it'll be okay.

Being having a bit of a chat with Fro, Bede and Frinky and came up with a relaxed cage design compared with the Evo, as attached in the badcagephoto (that's a drawing believe it or not, the realism, the realism). There's a few nice-to-haves that I haven't included yet such as triangulation of the front windscreen a bit to stop twisting (the Bede special) as well as joining the top bars of the intrusion bars to the rear strut tops (the Fro 'Bay' special.)
I was going to just have a single diagonal in the main hoop until I read an article titled 'Sideways in Safety' from the Dec 2009 edition of Racecar Engineering. Here's a nice little quote from David Lapworth, "You can forget 100km/h [in a side impact], it's almost unsurvivable..." so I figured why not increase the lateral strength a bit more. Interesting article on how to survive sideways impact is really a factor of how much space you have to play with, to the side of your car. Even the WRCars only have 200mm between the seats and the outside of the car and they've got it jammed pack with bars and foam, yet it is only good for a 65kph sideways impact before you pull 75g and get slightly blended. Think of sitting in a seat and then been shot at 20m a second into a lamppost I guess...so my point is:I think I'll get a cross in the main hoop.

Otherwise, not much else happening. Just need to get the windscreens out, strip the seams, and weld, pull out the fuel and brake lines from underneath as well as they'll end up inside. Is there a worse job when building than putting fuel and brakes lines in a rally car? Possibly seat mounts?

Oh, and I've been keeping half an eye on the weight of the various components. So, I've been keeping a list of most of the weights of most components as I've got an old set of scales out in the shed. The top four are:
1) by process of elimination, the shell - around 380kg I reckon?
2) the engine/gearbox - 140kg- not really much that can be saved here without affecting the reliability of the auxiliary mounts.
3) two freaking huge doors - 62kg combined. The door trims alone are 3kg each.
4) the wheels - small 185/60R15s on steel rims: 20kg each. Of that 1060kg weight that I started with, 100kg is tyres and rims! So, mags should be quite useful cutting out 25 - 30kg combined...
So, those four items are about 680kg out of the 1060kg (which I know now consists of about 20 - 25kg of fuel)

Pulled out the heater core and fan. All that plastic only comes to 7kg. Then from the US, or AUS, you can get these things:
12V Heater / Demister Straight Outlet: Speedy Air Spares
However, that says it is 6kg so there wouldn't be much point. I would have thought that it would be lighter than that as it is just a fan, a core and a little bit of plastic but just an idea.

The name of the game C of G wise (and PMI is Bede is reading) will be to mount as much as possible as far forward - and low - as possible. The spare tyre will have to be mounted literally under the main hoop. The more weight I can get on the front tyres the better. Going to be interesting making it turn but that will be the tradeoff. For now.

Err, that just about does it for now...

Mark

[crowleyaj]

Only just found this topic, love your work Mark. I shall be watching the build with interest. Will be good to see you out in the forest more regularly with this car, stirring up that young Casmiri fella.

[Mathew Boorman]

Originally Posted by Mark

Being having a bit of a chat with Fro, Bede and Frinky and came up with a relaxed cage design compared with the Evo, as attached in the badcagephoto (that's a drawing believe it or not, the realism, the realism). There's a few nice-to-haves that I haven't included yet such as triangulation of the front windscreen a bit to stop twisting (the Bede special) as well as joining the top bars of the intrusion bars to the rear strut tops (the Fro 'Bay' special.)

No harness bars shown. Close to the seats FTW.

[Mark]

Originally Posted by Mathew Boorman

No harness bars shown. Close to the seats FTW.

Good point. I just forgot to draw it. I was just going to use the rear strut brace part of the cage. Its less sensitive to seat/harness height that way - due to the 'being with 10 degrees of the horizontal' rule (I think).

Mark

[Matthew Ferguson]

Originally Posted by Mark

Good point. I just forgot to draw it. I was just going to use the rear strut brace part of the cage. Its less sensitive to seat/harness height that way - due to the 'being with 10 degrees of the horizontal' rule (I think).

Mark

Tube looks a little on the thin side in the drawing......

[smee]

Similar cage to the Familia.

I'd be looking at a Sainz bar, as the crush space between the A and B pillars is much greater than on a 4 door.

Have you considered a bar between where the front tower mounts meet the A pillar leg. Runs behind the dash.

The door trim on the Mazda is approx 1.5kgs.

You make note of trying to get weight forward as much as possible. I have found Jumps and yumps tend to set the rear off in mine, and it has a little weight behind the main hoop.
Got my spring and Damper rates from those that Murray used to run, and it helped immensly. Had to ensur the spring and shock settings were softer, but not too soft.