Questions on Camira brakes for Tortfeaser and others...

[fishsoup2006]

Tortfeaser (Marc) as one of the few people who actually race a Camira, I have some questions regarding brake upgrades to Camira's for you and anyone else who's interested.

Marc in your write up in the Performance Forum regarding your JD Camira rally car you mention the car has VP Commodore brakes front and rear with 290mm discs. There are a few Camira owners who have done or are doing turbo and supercharger upgrades and want to upgrade the brakes and are looking for ideas.

The only easy brake upgrade I have found is to replace the current front 236mm X 20mm thick discs with Daewoo Espero 256mm X 25mm thick disks and the Espero calipers. All parts just bolt on. Also some manufacturers sell grooved sports rotors that suit but they are made to the puny stock dimensions and are not cheap. I've also found this brake upgrade kit from the UK, refer here:
http://www.lmfvauxhall.co.uk/store/product.php?productid=16345}&cat=1876&page=

Now the Commodore calipers also bolt on but the problem is finding suitable discs. The Commodore discs don't fit as the 'pot part' of the disc is deeper, as well they are obviously 5 stud. What discs did you fit to your Camira? I would think a 276mm (or 290mm) X 22/23mm thick ventilated disc with the Camira 4 bolt centre is what's needed but can't see where they can be obtained.

For the rear how was the disc brake conversion done?

Any hints will be posted on the Camira Community forum for the benefit of performance upgraders of this undervalued machine.

[tortfeaser]

From memory (my notes are at home) the Front disks I used are Peugeot 504, DBA272. They are 273mm dia (so 290mm was bollocks), vented, 20mm thick with 4 holes at 4x98 (?) PCD. You need to either redrill the disk for another 4 holes at 4x100PCD or enlarge the existing holes a bit. The Pug disks are 43mm high (hat surface to disk inner surface). They have a 76mm dia hub hole, so you need to machine some rings that fit over the Camira hub with 76mm OD.

Front Commodore calipers just bolt on.

I don't know if the stock master cylinder is suitable 'cos mine is changed. I'd stick them on and see. You could compare piston diameter to get an idea, I can't help here.

From memory also, I think some disks from a Mitsu 3000GT might be useful on the front for bigger diameter. You can get DBA disks undrilled, but have to wait till they're doing a production run for that part.

I've no idea what the rear disks are, they are pretty tall. Maybe Commodore. There's an adaptor plate bolted to the back of the Camira hub carrier that the Commodore caliper bolts to. The problem is that you can't adjust toe in the usual way by spacing the hub carrier away from the arm as the adaptor is on the other side of the arm. I haven't solved this problem yet, and its a big one. Rear toe out makes for a very taily car. Great for nimbleness, bad for twitchy oversteer.

[tortfeaser]

I've attached the DBA catalogue in Excel format, which is dead useful for referring to and searching for the appropriate part.

Sorry couldn't attach. Need more attachments space. I've emailed it to you.

[Ben Wilson]

For future reference, the catalog can be found here. In case anyone else might want a copy.

[tortfeaser]

Onya.

[fishsoup2006]

Thanks guys for the really quick response.

Thanks Marc very much for the details on the Peugeot 504 front discs (dba 272). According to Disc Brakes Aust. the dba 272 was also used in the 505 and 604. I might even be able to find one at a local wrecker. The fact that these discs can be used with Commodore calipers is a huge advantage as far as cost, availability and pad options goes.

I think I'll find all the bits I need, test them on my neck snapping JB and then report the result.

When you look at DBA's list of discs it is surprising how many there are. Not much standardisation by car manufacturers here. I've already spent quite a bit of time trawling through their list and the choices rapidly disappear when you consider the requirements of:
1. >270mm diameter (to suit the Commodore caliper, less than that then use a Daewoo Espero disc & caliper)
2. 23 to 19mm thick ventilated (the Commodore caliper is quite narrow)
4. 4 bolt holes (preferably 100 PCD)
5. >57mm diam. centre hole
6. 41mm preferred overall height (at about 45.5mm the disc will grind the strut and that's without the back shield)

The boosted or racing? Camira basically needs a large OD, thin ventilated disc to suit 4 bolt holes when nearly every car manufacturer seems to think you need 5 bolt holes for that diameter. Trust the French and Italians to only use this combination.

Another disc that may be of use is a dba 665. (284mm diam. X 22mm thick, 44mm overall height, 59mm diam. central hole , also 4X98 PCD. This disc size is also 'listed as' available in the DBA X & 4000 series. These are used on the more powerful Alfa 155's and some Fiats and Lancia's. I still need to check that the 284mm diam. is OK with either the single piston or dual piston Commodore calipers. It's overall height is a bit tight as well.

This led me to the Italian OMP discs. Their equivalent of the dba 665 is the tfs/2037. They have another related disc the tfs/2022 which looks like the best fit apart from also having a 4X98 PCD. It's overall height is 39.3 and otherwise is the same as the tfs/2037. This means that a back shield/mud deflector thingy can be fitted. It was/is used in the Alfa 145/146/155, a few Fiats and Lancia's. DBA don't have an equivalent though. Bastards didn't think of Camira upgraders did they! Must be stupid or something.

I think this is a retarded eBay UK add for a OMP tfs/2022:
http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI....MEWA:IT&ih=022

The OMP disc catalogue can be found here (the link is dischigrn.pdf):
http://www.ompracing.it/prodotti.htm...ngelanguage=en

That's as far as I've got for the moment. Now what's toe in and out, bit like Irish dancing??

[Graham Wallis]

Originally Posted by fishsoup2006

Thanks guys for the really quick response.

Thanks Marc very much for the details on the Peugeot 504 front discs (dba 272). According to Disc Brakes Aust. the dba 272 was also used in the 505 and 604. I might even be able to find one at a local wrecker. The fact that these discs can be used with Commodore calipers is a huge advantage as far as cost, availability and pad options goes.

I think I'll find all the bits I need, test them on my neck snapping JB and then report the result.

When you look at DBA's list of discs it is surprising how many there are. Not much standardisation by car manufacturers here. I've already spent quite a bit of time trawling through their list and the choices rapidly disappear when you consider the requirements of:
1. >270mm diameter (to suit the Commodore caliper, less than that then use a Daewoo Espero disc & caliper)
2. 23 to 19mm thick ventilated (the Commodore caliper is quite narrow)
4. 4 bolt holes (preferably 100 PCD)
5. >57mm diam. centre hole
6. 41mm preferred overall height (at about 45.5mm the disc will grind the strut and that's without the back shield)

The boosted or racing? Camira basically needs a large OD, thin ventilated disc to suit 4 bolt holes when nearly every car manufacturer seems to think you need 5 bolt holes for that diameter. Trust the French and Italians to only use this combination.

Another disc that may be of use is a dba 665. (284mm diam. X 22mm thick, 44mm overall height, 59mm diam. central hole , also 4X98 PCD. This disc size is also 'listed as' available in the DBA X & 4000 series. These are used on the more powerful Alfa 155's and some Fiats and Lancia's. I still need to check that the 284mm diam. is OK with either the single piston or dual piston Commodore calipers. It's overall height is a bit tight as well.

This led me to the Italian OMP discs. Their equivalent of the dba 665 is the tfs/2037. They have another related disc the tfs/2022 which looks like the best fit apart from also having a 4X98 PCD. It's overall height is 39.3 and otherwise is the same as the tfs/2037. This means that a back shield/mud deflector thingy can be fitted. It was/is used in the Alfa 145/146/155, a few Fiats and Lancia's. DBA don't have an equivalent though. Bastards didn't think of Camira upgraders did they! Must be stupid or something.

I think this is a retarded eBay UK add for a OMP tfs/2022:
http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI....MEWA:IT&ih=022

The OMP disc catalogue can be found here (the link is dischigrn.pdf):
http://www.ompracing.it/prodotti.htm...ngelanguage=en

That's as far as I've got for the moment. Now what's toe in and out, bit like Irish dancing??

These would be the vented discs, near impossible to find at the wreckers as they were only fitted to 604s in this country.
I only paid $65 each, new, at Hi Tech Brakes in Moorabbin.
Graham

[tortfeaser]

Ta for that. I'd be interested to see how well DBA665 went in relation to hitting the caliper with that diameter. Let us know how you go.

If you find something you like where the only restriction is the number of stud holes standard, call DBA and find if they've got any undrilled. Getting them drilled is trivial, as is enlarging any centre hole.

[fishsoup2006]

Thanks Graham for the info on the Peugeot ventilated discs, saves me wasting some more time at the wreckers. Thanks also for the good source of discs, I'm in Melbourne so I'll give them a call.

Marc, your point about looking at disc blanks is a good one. My preferred disk to suit a Commodore front caliper taken from a 290mm disc (used on VS and most V8 Commodores) is now a DBA763 blank. This disc is used on 5 stud Alfa's, Fiats and Lancia's. The DBA763 is 284mm diameter, 22 thick, and has an overall height of 40mm. It's very similar to the DBA665 I mentioned previously except that the DBA665 disc has an overall height of 44mm which prevents the installation of a back shield. I haven't contacted Disc Brakes Aust. yet regarding availability though.

For the '290mm class' I've fitted a VS Commodore caliper to the Camira strut and carefully measured the key dimensions and think it should work fine with a DBA763. 16” wheels or larger are however required.

For the '270mm class' it looks like your selection is the best fit. A Commodore front caliper taken from a 270mm disc (used on VB to VP 6 cyl. Commodores) with a DBA272 blank disc. 15” wheels or larger are required. Calibra wheels are suitable but are not very common. By the way I think I found that the Peugeot's use a 4x108mm PCD.

For the '256mm class' I have just fitted Daewoo Espero front discs and calipers to my JB and it fits like it was made for the Camira. I just needed to use M12x1.25x40long high tensile hex head screws to attach the Calipers in place of the Camira's stock 32mm long screws. My solo brake bleeding skills need improvement but I havn't really noticed any difference over the stock 236mm discs yet. 14” wheels or larger are required. This arrangement has the advantage of a plentiful supply of 14” Camira alloy wheels.

Now I think I'll investigate rear disc conversions for the Camira. Any more ideas anyone?

[beanpole]

Yeah, std JE rotor and cal.

There's a 25mm rotor off a Calibra (?) which goes straight on the front, no mods.

What on earth do you want a backing shield for??

If you're going to this much trouble, look at some 4 spots?

For this forum, think in terms of 15", that's the tyre size we're limited to in rallying.

BUT if you have access to plenty of SJ wheels, I'd like to know.........



Kev

[fishsoup2006]

Thanks Kev, you're right about the 4 stud Calibra front disc and calipers fitting on the Camira. I've fitted these at a wrecker but I bought the Espero setup instead because it was in better condition. The Calibra and Espero front brakes are effectively identical but have different manufacturers. Pads are common.

The backing shield is just that sheet metal shield that I presume reduces mud and debris hitting the disc. If manufacturers put them on they must have a purpose. I'm not into racing and I'm just after a durable set up for the road. No idea what 4 spots are?

I've got 3 Camiras, a JB and 2 JE's and plenty of wheels but I'm hanging on to them for now. I see quite a few Camira alloy wheels on eBay and wreckers must have plenty.

[Marty]

Originally Posted by fishsoup2006

Now I think I'll investigate rear disc conversions for the Camira. Any more ideas anyone?

I run VN Commodore Calipers on the back of mine. I can't remember what rotors I have (Maybe the Barretts at Total Traction Services would be able to tell you - they should still have a record of the bill they gave me.)

I know they made up a bracket to mount the calipers. They might have a copy of the template for that too.

[fishsoup2006]

Photos of a rear caliper setup anyone?

[tortfeaser]

I'll try and remember to take a photo and measure the disk dimensions. Marty and I have the same rear calipers.

I've tried the VT twin spot sliding calipers. They fit under the 15" wheels I've got (Calibra mainly), but with only about 3mm clearance. I didnt' think this was enough for gravel rallying. Some strategic caliper grinding could have got another 4-5mm, but it wasn't worth it.

What I really need is a pedal box with twin master cylinders. Marty has a bit of a rube goldberg setup on the engine side of the firewall. I reckon the pedal box could be modified so that the master cylinders bolt directly to the firewall but havne't got around to trying it out.

[fishsoup2006]

I've started this thread on Family2Tuners for the benefit of Camira owners, covering front brake upgrades for the Camira based on the many tips received here plus a few others. Feel free to offer suggestions. Thanks guys.

http://www.family2tuners.com/viewtop...=59&p=113#p113