Educate me on Pug 205s.

[Spac]

Yes, the term is "sucker for punishment"... At least we don't own any old pommy cars - we're not that sick!

Anyhow, Anna has just scored one - I'm picking it up tomorrow.

Seat fabric has pretty-well exploded, seems like a decent car otherwise.

How much fuel will it use?

What do I need to know to stop it driving me insane?

[rowdytoot]

box of matches and a jerry of fuel..

[Woody]

I'd say a jerry would be enough fuel ...

You can get great go-fast parts from the UK.

[Andy Crane]

Is it a 205 Si , 1600cc with single throttle body injector and small brakes and will easly do 35 mpg .
or is it a 205 GTi , 1900 cc with multi point injectionand good brakes. and can achive 30mpg.
The 205GTi is just crying out for a MI16 twin cam head and throttle bodies and a sump guard.

[Spac]

Its a GTi.

[global]

Ah French Cars, They either last 300k or are just basket cases.

205's can have wiring, drive shaft and bushing issues.
Gear boxes and Engines are usually ok.

Buy a sub $1 or 2k MI16 and do the engine exchange!!! Its common and they become weapons with another 15 or 20 Kw. (you can also use a 306 XSI, S16 or GTI-6 Engine) But Mi16 is prefered.

I have a few books, I have had a 205 Gti, MI16, GTI -6 before and now have a 306 XSI. They have all been reasonable, but plenty of Pug Horror stories out there......

[HoonBoy]

Leave it stock, cringe at parts prices and then throw it away when you realise that you want to modify it. They are GREAT cars, but can cost an absolute fortune to repair and modifications are either bend over and pay UK prices or live with local crap.

[imortl]

Originally Posted by Andy Crane

The 205GTi is just crying out for a MI16 twin cam head and throttle bodies and a sump guard.

Not so loud! We are spending enough on the Capella, Heyehy does not need any more temptation!

Seriously though, if you want to see how well they can really go, call Heyehy (or PM me if you haven't got his number) and I am sure he would be happy to show you his GTI.

I drove it at an SDMA hillclimb and it went like stink!

[justinb]

205 GTI's

The Australian imports are as follows

Series 1 87-88
Series 2 89-92
Series 3 - 93-94
Series 3 Classic


Series 1 and 2 had the same detuned engine. 75kw. However the Series 1 had BE1 gearbox (Reverse up next to 1) whereas series 2 and 4 had the BE3 gearbox

Series 3 has the 90kw engine

The reason for the change is that our fuel was not good enough for the engine, hence the detune until series 3 hit the shore

Series 2 is the one to avoid. It is under powered and the gearing is ****e for it. EDIT NOTE : I just remembered.. I did once drive a series 2 for an hour which had a power chip in it.. that was a good drive, and the power chip made it more drivable...

Series 1, the BE1 gearbox is a joy. The ratio's are close (5th gear, 4000RPM = 120km/h or 5th gear, 2000rpm was 62km/h (I had a series 1) you could have A/C or power steering, but not both.. (series

Series 3 90kw engine.. And from all accounts.. A sweet engine… dion't know much about them…


The engines (like any 4cyl euro I've owned and driven) has torque from low revs. Anything above 4500rpm you're wasting your time.. Pick the next gear…

By far the funest car I've driven (Owned an Evo VR4 RS, Liberty RS, Renault ClioSport MkII, plus others not worth mentioning)

However.. They do have issues.

Guide seals tend to go
* Hoses are radiator *****ing expensive..and there are a lot of them....6 or 7 from memory There is a radiator hose on the series 1 that connects the radiator to the top of the engine, but also two pipes come off that and place a water jacket around the housing where the oil filter is screwed it.. (oil filter. That is another issue.. See below)
* Electrics are *****ed. Central locking would work, 1/2 work, open but not lock, lock, but only 2 of the three doors (inc hatch) etc.. Horn would come and go… lights would come and go…
* starter motor dying is common, but the issue is the wire feeding power to the starter motor is in a VERY hot area so it tends to die.. Replace that first before *****ing around with the starter motor… 9/10 times it will fix it..
* gearbox R&R for a pro is 9 hours… so clutch is expensive in labour
* starter motor is 4 R&R
* they run hot.. First thing to do.. R & R the radiator.. And run redline watter wetter.. Made a huge difference for my car.
* the water temp guage is weird.. When it is reading 3/4 (i.e towards the hot) it is only 90 degrees.. The read zone is 105 or 110 degrees… it is off putting, but it is ok.. They run 90-95 when pushed...
* the rear suspension is trailing arm configuration. And the bearings move so little that they often rush out and colapse. Look for a rear end squeeke.. If it does.. RUN!!! Bloody expensive to fix.. Also, the rear wheels should be 90 degrees to the road.. Any camber.. RUN!!! it means the trailing arm bearings have colapsed. There is a fix (if you can repair it or get to it in time) and that is to drill a hole in the beam, fill it with grease and then plug it.. The issue as I understand it is that they move so little, the bearings don’t lub themsleves hence they ***** out..
* GTI rear height is 19MM from memory, the SI is 21 or 22MM basicly the SI is higher (measured from some point)… everyone says that running the SI rear makes them A hell of a lot more better to drive… (Port-a-pug RIP to the man, the owner, rallied and raced peugoets.. He told me that. And I’m sure I've seen that else where)
* the series 1 atleast has an oil cooler, however the configuration is STUPID!!! Bloody french… where you screw the oil filter on, it actually away from the engine.. Thus two pipes (a feeder and return) comeout of the engine block (from where the oil pump is obviously) to connect to the oil screw on point and where the water jacket is… these pipes are $600 and break over time with engine flex.
* bottom engine mount is $300 and break often
* top engine moiunt (not the one under the battery) break often.. 18 months is good according to the parts places I got my stuff from
*clutch cable is an amazing jigsaw puzzle and due to allt he bends, turns and twists, broke every 12 months on me… easy to fit yourself.. Takes about 1 1/2 hrs.. Or so… depending on what is already missing from the car…inc trim.
* BE1 gearboxes are only good for 200,000km.. Look out for a whine in 5th gear.. it is the bearing
* also run redline oil in the gearbox.. it will love you for it.. they really respond to that oil.. Castrol Syntrax was good, but notable difference in shifting speed with the redline.
* water pumps are an issue with them too..keep an eye out.

* If you are replacing the clutch.. The answer is to freshen the gearbox at the same time as it is so hard to get in there in the first place.

EDIT * THe gear selection action (from 1st to 2nd or top to bottom or north to south, however you call it) is VERY VERY LONG and takes sapes time...especially with the Series 1 BE1 gearbox.. as you're constantly changing gear... get a hold of a short shift kit from griffiths engineering in the UK... what i liked about the design is that you can make the throw, super short (2 cm) or medium or standard.. as if you didn't have the kit)... I had it super short and boy did it make it sweet... that also reminds me.. there is a series on connecting rods for the gear selection.. you'd know what I mean when you saw them, but the cup which the ball of one end of the rods slot into don't take too kindly being removed (i.e for a gearbox R&R) and the plastic recess suffers.. it is only $10-$20 for each rod from memory, but you should replace them... there is alot of heat there as the exhaust runs backwards in the engine which makes your feet super toasty in summer...

Anyhow.. A quick dump here at work.. Call me (I've Pmed you) if you want to discuss

[Warps]

Three simple words:

WWD

Says Warps who is test driving a new Clio 197 to replace the Forry XT later next week

[justinb]

Originally Posted by Warps

Three simple words:

WWD

Says Warps who is test driving a new Clio 197 to replace the Forry XT later next week

I've owned a CLio... we should chat before you commit.. it will save you the pain of ownership

[Warps]

Originally Posted by justinb

I've owned a CLio... we should chat before you commit.. it will save you the pain of ownership

PM sent

[Graham Wallis]

Get rid of oil cooler, problem solved. If you want fit an aftermarket one. Then you can use a Camira top hose for $12.
Bottom mounts are $25 from Caravelle Imports in Melbourne
BE3 has same ratios but a better design than BE1.
Rear wheels do have some camber.
4 hours for a starter motor is ridiculous, I would schedule 2 and an expert would do it in 40 minutes, you've only got to remove the inlet manifold, not hard.
No problems with overheating at all and radiators are only $280, less than a new core for other cars.
Wrong about lack of revs, the series 3 sing at 7000, even the early ones don't start to fade until 6000.
I have run one in Autocross and Motorkhanas for 3 years, no problems at all, and I drive to and from events with superb economy, up to 7 litres a hundred including the competition!
And on top of this very compeptive, usually in the top 2 or 3 non 4wd cars in VCAS events.
Graham

Originally Posted by justinb

205 GTI's

The Australian imports are as follows

Series 1 87-88
Series 2 89-92
Series 3 - 93-94
Series 3 Classic


Series 1 and 2 had the same detuned engine. 75kw. However the Series 1 had BE1 gearbox (Reverse up next to 1) whereas series 2 and 4 had the BE3 gearbox

Series 3 has the 90kw engine

The reason for the change is that our fuel was not good enough for the engine, hence the detune until series 3 hit the shore

Series 2 is the one to avoid. It is under powered and the gearing is ****e for it. EDIT NOTE : I just remembered.. I did once drive a series 2 for an hour which had a power chip in it.. that was a good drive, and the power chip made it more drivable...

Series 1, the BE1 gearbox is a joy. The ratio's are close (5th gear, 4000RPM = 120km/h or 5th gear, 2000rpm was 62km/h (I had a series 1) you could have A/C or power steering, but not both.. (series

Series 3 90kw engine.. And from all accounts.. A sweet engine… dion't know much about them…


The engines (like any 4cyl euro I've owned and driven) has torque from low revs. Anything above 4500rpm you're wasting your time.. Pick the next gear…

By far the funest car I've driven (Owned an Evo VR4 RS, Liberty RS, Renault ClioSport MkII, plus others not worth mentioning)

However.. They do have issues.

Guide seals tend to go
* Hoses are radiator *****ing expensive..and there are a lot of them....6 or 7 from memory There is a radiator hose on the series 1 that connects the radiator to the top of the engine, but also two pipes come off that and place a water jacket around the housing where the oil filter is screwed it.. (oil filter. That is another issue.. See below)
* Electrics are *****ed. Central locking would work, 1/2 work, open but not lock, lock, but only 2 of the three doors (inc hatch) etc.. Horn would come and go… lights would come and go…
* starter motor dying is common, but the issue is the wire feeding power to the starter motor is in a VERY hot area so it tends to die.. Replace that first before *****ing around with the starter motor… 9/10 times it will fix it..
* gearbox R&R for a pro is 9 hours… so clutch is expensive in labour
* starter motor is 4 R&R
* they run hot.. First thing to do.. R & R the radiator.. And run redline watter wetter.. Made a huge difference for my car.
* the water temp guage is weird.. When it is reading 3/4 (i.e towards the hot) it is only 90 degrees.. The read zone is 105 or 110 degrees… it is off putting, but it is ok.. They run 90-95 when pushed...
* the rear suspension is trailing arm configuration. And the bearings move so little that they often rush out and colapse. Look for a rear end squeeke.. If it does.. RUN!!! Bloody expensive to fix.. Also, the rear wheels should be 90 degrees to the road.. Any camber.. RUN!!! it means the trailing arm bearings have colapsed. There is a fix (if you can repair it or get to it in time) and that is to drill a hole in the beam, fill it with grease and then plug it.. The issue as I understand it is that they move so little, the bearings don’t lub themsleves hence they ***** out..
* GTI rear height is 19MM from memory, the SI is 21 or 22MM basicly the SI is higher (measured from some point)… everyone says that running the SI rear makes them A hell of a lot more better to drive… (Port-a-pug RIP to the man, the owner, rallied and raced peugoets.. He told me that. And I’m sure I've seen that else where)
* the series 1 atleast has an oil cooler, however the configuration is STUPID!!! Bloody french… where you screw the oil filter on, it actually away from the engine.. Thus two pipes (a feeder and return) comeout of the engine block (from where the oil pump is obviously) to connect to the oil screw on point and where the water jacket is… these pipes are $600 and break over time with engine flex.
* bottom engine mount is $300 and break often
* top engine moiunt (not the one under the battery) break often.. 18 months is good according to the parts places I got my stuff from
*clutch cable is an amazing jigsaw puzzle and due to allt he bends, turns and twists, broke every 12 months on me… easy to fit yourself.. Takes about 1 1/2 hrs.. Or so… depending on what is already missing from the car…inc trim.
* BE1 gearboxes are only good for 200,000km.. Look out for a whine in 5th gear.. it is the bearing
* also run redline oil in the gearbox.. it will love you for it.. they really respond to that oil.. Castrol Syntrax was good, but notable difference in shifting speed with the redline.
* water pumps are an issue with them too..keep an eye out.

* If you are replacing the clutch.. The answer is to freshen the gearbox at the same time as it is so hard to get in there in the first place.

EDIT * THe gear selection action (from 1st to 2nd or top to bottom or north to south, however you call it) is VERY VERY LONG and takes sapes time...especially with the Series 1 BE1 gearbox.. as you're constantly changing gear... get a hold of a short shift kit from griffiths engineering in the UK... what i liked about the design is that you can make the throw, super short (2 cm) or medium or standard.. as if you didn't have the kit)... I had it super short and boy did it make it sweet... that also reminds me.. there is a series on connecting rods for the gear selection.. you'd know what I mean when you saw them, but the cup which the ball of one end of the rods slot into don't take too kindly being removed (i.e for a gearbox R&R) and the plastic recess suffers.. it is only $10-$20 for each rod from memory, but you should replace them... there is alot of heat there as the exhaust runs backwards in the engine which makes your feet super toasty in summer...

Anyhow.. A quick dump here at work.. Call me (I've Pmed you) if you want to discuss

[Corty]

Sounds like a Jerry of fuel and a match is over capitalisation

[Graham Wallis]

Justin, I am in the process of installing a 205 engine and box as we speak. You must be thinking of another car, there are no tight bends in the clutch cable, it took 2 minutes to install and I have NEVER had any sort of problem with them.
When the clutch pressure plates get old the movement is very stiff, maybe it is this you were trying to eradicate.
If the change is long then it will be down to worn ball joints ($10 a shift rod and 5 minutes to change) or maybe even a loose nut on the lower pivot point.

There is nothing complicated or poorly designed about these cars, it is lack of knowledge which results in the disaster stories. In Europe 205s are just about the only cars more than 10 years old still on the roads, seems to indicate a long lasting viable car I would say.

Graham

Originally Posted by justinb

205 GTI's

The Australian imports are as follows

Series 1 87-88
Series 2 89-92
Series 3 - 93-94
Series 3 Classic


Series 1 and 2 had the same detuned engine. 75kw. However the Series 1 had BE1 gearbox (Reverse up next to 1) whereas series 2 and 4 had the BE3 gearbox

Series 3 has the 90kw engine

The reason for the change is that our fuel was not good enough for the engine, hence the detune until series 3 hit the shore

Series 2 is the one to avoid. It is under powered and the gearing is ****e for it. EDIT NOTE : I just remembered.. I did once drive a series 2 for an hour which had a power chip in it.. that was a good drive, and the power chip made it more drivable...

Series 1, the BE1 gearbox is a joy. The ratio's are close (5th gear, 4000RPM = 120km/h or 5th gear, 2000rpm was 62km/h (I had a series 1) you could have A/C or power steering, but not both.. (series

Series 3 90kw engine.. And from all accounts.. A sweet engine… dion't know much about them…


The engines (like any 4cyl euro I've owned and driven) has torque from low revs. Anything above 4500rpm you're wasting your time.. Pick the next gear…

By far the funest car I've driven (Owned an Evo VR4 RS, Liberty RS, Renault ClioSport MkII, plus others not worth mentioning)

However.. They do have issues.

Guide seals tend to go
* Hoses are radiator *****ing expensive..and there are a lot of them....6 or 7 from memory There is a radiator hose on the series 1 that connects the radiator to the top of the engine, but also two pipes come off that and place a water jacket around the housing where the oil filter is screwed it.. (oil filter. That is another issue.. See below)
* Electrics are *****ed. Central locking would work, 1/2 work, open but not lock, lock, but only 2 of the three doors (inc hatch) etc.. Horn would come and go… lights would come and go…
* starter motor dying is common, but the issue is the wire feeding power to the starter motor is in a VERY hot area so it tends to die.. Replace that first before *****ing around with the starter motor… 9/10 times it will fix it..
* gearbox R&R for a pro is 9 hours… so clutch is expensive in labour
* starter motor is 4 R&R
* they run hot.. First thing to do.. R & R the radiator.. And run redline watter wetter.. Made a huge difference for my car.
* the water temp guage is weird.. When it is reading 3/4 (i.e towards the hot) it is only 90 degrees.. The read zone is 105 or 110 degrees… it is off putting, but it is ok.. They run 90-95 when pushed...
* the rear suspension is trailing arm configuration. And the bearings move so little that they often rush out and colapse. Look for a rear end squeeke.. If it does.. RUN!!! Bloody expensive to fix.. Also, the rear wheels should be 90 degrees to the road.. Any camber.. RUN!!! it means the trailing arm bearings have colapsed. There is a fix (if you can repair it or get to it in time) and that is to drill a hole in the beam, fill it with grease and then plug it.. The issue as I understand it is that they move so little, the bearings don’t lub themsleves hence they ***** out..
* GTI rear height is 19MM from memory, the SI is 21 or 22MM basicly the SI is higher (measured from some point)… everyone says that running the SI rear makes them A hell of a lot more better to drive… (Port-a-pug RIP to the man, the owner, rallied and raced peugoets.. He told me that. And I’m sure I've seen that else where)
* the series 1 atleast has an oil cooler, however the configuration is STUPID!!! Bloody french… where you screw the oil filter on, it actually away from the engine.. Thus two pipes (a feeder and return) comeout of the engine block (from where the oil pump is obviously) to connect to the oil screw on point and where the water jacket is… these pipes are $600 and break over time with engine flex.
* bottom engine mount is $300 and break often
* top engine moiunt (not the one under the battery) break often.. 18 months is good according to the parts places I got my stuff from
*clutch cable is an amazing jigsaw puzzle and due to allt he bends, turns and twists, broke every 12 months on me… easy to fit yourself.. Takes about 1 1/2 hrs.. Or so… depending on what is already missing from the car…inc trim.
* BE1 gearboxes are only good for 200,000km.. Look out for a whine in 5th gear.. it is the bearing
* also run redline oil in the gearbox.. it will love you for it.. they really respond to that oil.. Castrol Syntrax was good, but notable difference in shifting speed with the redline.
* water pumps are an issue with them too..keep an eye out.

* If you are replacing the clutch.. The answer is to freshen the gearbox at the same time as it is so hard to get in there in the first place.

EDIT * THe gear selection action (from 1st to 2nd or top to bottom or north to south, however you call it) is VERY VERY LONG and takes sapes time...especially with the Series 1 BE1 gearbox.. as you're constantly changing gear... get a hold of a short shift kit from griffiths engineering in the UK... what i liked about the design is that you can make the throw, super short (2 cm) or medium or standard.. as if you didn't have the kit)... I had it super short and boy did it make it sweet... that also reminds me.. there is a series on connecting rods for the gear selection.. you'd know what I mean when you saw them, but the cup which the ball of one end of the rods slot into don't take too kindly being removed (i.e for a gearbox R&R) and the plastic recess suffers.. it is only $10-$20 for each rod from memory, but you should replace them... there is alot of heat there as the exhaust runs backwards in the engine which makes your feet super toasty in summer...

Anyhow.. A quick dump here at work.. Call me (I've Pmed you) if you want to discuss