Thinking about a Corolla.

[tortfeaser]

I'm thinking about building a rally car, having given up on the idea of a Mini a while ago.

I'm a bit fixated on the idea of a FWD thing - I understand the love of the Datsun, but I'm a bit of a FWD rev happy sicko.

Options - Charade, Swift Gti, Pug 205Gti, Corolla or Excel. I want replacement panels etc to be cheaply available and I want performance bits to be both available and not too costy. I knocked back the Charade and Swift for no good reason, and the Excel is still to expensive for the initial purchase. Performance bits for the three either aren't available or are too expensive.

So, I'm left with the Pug which I like a whole lot, but Peugeot Sport bits are way costy and panels would be expensive. Then we're left with the Corolla. The 4AGE motor is A Good Thing. Available in 86kW versions in the AE82 and 100kW in the AE92. 4AGE equipped cars came with 4 wheel disks and have the same panels as the millions of other Corollas around. Panels should be available in plenty and pretty cheap.

Questions:

1. Should I get the AE82 or AE92? AE82 is lighter & cheaper but came with less powerful motor. I don't know if I can put the 100kW motor CAMS legally into the AE82.

2. Should I get the shopping trolley version of either, then buy a 4AGE from a Jap wrecker and fit it, or buy the 4AGE version first up?

3. Do the throttle bodies on the 20V version of the 4AGE fit the 16v 100kW one with no mods?

4. Did anything with the FWD gearbox come with a LSD? Can I fit the stronger gearbox and stronger driveshafts off the 4AGZE onto the 4AGE in a AE82/92 with no trouble?

5. What suspension is available? What big brakes can I fit?

6. Did the 4AGE Corollas only come with 5 doors? What is the homologation story for the Corolla?

7. What haven't I thought of?

I know there's merit in buying a built rally car, but we need a second car and I thought running around in a Corolla while putting a motor, gearbox and megasquirt in wouldn't be a bad idea for maybe a couple of years.

[Rallyray]

Originally posted by tortfeaser
7. What haven't I thought of?

See Trading Post... Lancer for sale

[Spac]

Interesting thoughts....

1. Check this out (ie, don't just take my word for it!), but I believe the AE92 has a better rear end in it. More common car too, in comparison to the AE82 (just from what I've seen - and its not like I've been looking).

2. Depends on the budget. There's a lot more "good rally car starting point" povo pack cars around. Very rare to see a rough GTi/CSX around. Maybe get faded/crook motor'd CS and do the swap. They've all got tachos, don't they?

3. No. Speak to Mawk or Professor Frink (Ben Wilson). Not impossible, but not a bolt-on either.

4. I though the 4AGZE has an LSD?

5. NFI.

6. NFI, but Sam Brand used to run a 3-door 4AGE powered one - apparently the motor was still available about 6 months ago.
I'd go for a 5-door - easier to get bits for, Aust delivered (you wouldn't even have to buy the homol papers!), and I don't believe the weigh much more. And 3-door cars waste so much space that could otherwise be used for stuffing serive gear, sleeping bags and the like for the trip to an event...

[Mark]

Jeez, Marc, where do I start? I think we've have had this conversation before on the web. Ben Wilson should really post the answers but I'll contribute my two cents. Bob Moore also pointed out rightly that driveshafts are the only issue.

I used to have an AE82 Twin Cam (with the 86kw) and drag-raced up Anzac parade once upon a time against my friends AE92 with the 100kw engine. They just stayed neck and neck the whole up. My point is the 100kw quote is full of *****e and it really makes around 90kw but has more low down torque. Stocker's only make about 50kw at the wheels on dyno's - judging from the last few Toyota dyno days in Sydney. If people say different tell them to stop dyno'ing it in 3rd and put it into 1:1 in 4th...
100kw is also a small port head while what my car and the AE82 were homolgated with large port heads. The large port heads are suited to 180hp at the fly onwards.
The debate over whether you are allowed to put the 100kw engine into the AE82 body because the engines are all classified as 4AGE's is an interesting one. If you find out the answer let me know. There are very few physical differences - oil squirters squirt underneath the piston head, 3 or 4 extra ribs for increased block strength, 10.4:1 pistons rather than the 9.4:1 pistons that come in the large port AE82-spec engine.

100kw also came with smaller camshafts (by a whopping 4 degrees) and I think a little bit less. Personally I'd go the AE82. The only advantage of the AE92 is the cockpit is nicer and has good gauges standard (like oil pressure and battery voltage) while being a bit heavier (70kg possibly?).

Oh yeah, the good AE82/AE92 come with a good strut brace as well as the four disk brakes...
So to answer your questions:
1)Get an AE82 - lighter and the engine puts out the same power...
2) Dunno about the shopping trolley.
3) Yep. I've got 20V throttle bodies on my engine. All you need is the appropriate Redline manifold, adaptor plates, 20V throttle bodies, custom trumpets ( ) and the computer to run them on TPS.
4) Dunno about gearboxes except there are LSD's around that you can plug in. Ask Ben Wilson.
5) Ask Ben Wilson. Brakes - depends on your wheels -
6) Nope - you can the AE82/AE92 as Jap imports with only two doors and the hatch. There are a few rally cars getting around in NSW/VIC/WA in this mode.
7) Some of the niciest smoothest gearstick changes around.... Check out www.billzilla.org for the full info on the 4AGE. See what later Corolla's came out with the supercharged engine. Choose between 100kw - 150kw at the wheels for power

Mark

[Mark]

Oh yeah, after reading Spac's post....I checked out Sam Brands engine after wearing out an engine. $5K for the engine and head, TRD parts throughout, good for 180 hp at the fly.... But I think it was a 13:1 monster which means you're going to have to run on Elf.

Mark

[Ben Wilson]

Originally posted by tortfeaser
1. Should I get the AE82 or AE92? AE82 is lighter & cheaper but came with less powerful motor. I don't know if I can put the 100kW motor CAMS legally into the AE82.

It's worth checking the homologation pages, if the AE82 was was homologated pre '86 with the 4AG, there's a lot more potential for fun. If not, I'd suggest the AE92 as it is a superior motor with more potential (even within the rules)

2. Should I get the shopping trolley version of either, then buy a 4AGE from a Jap wrecker and fit it, or buy the 4AGE version first up?

The 4AG versions come with stuff like rear disks standard..

3. Do the throttle bodies on the 20V version of the 4AGE fit the 16v 100kW one with no mods?

No - There are adapters out there though, or you can build one up..

4. Did anything with the FWD gearbox come with a LSD? Can I fit the stronger gearbox and stronger driveshafts off the 4AGZE onto the 4AGE in a AE82/92 with no trouble?

Some model ZE boxes are availible with LSD's, they also need bigger driveshafts (not a bad idea)

5. What suspension is available? What big brakes can I fit?

I'm fairly sure you can most types of 'off the shelf' stuff for them in suspension, exotic stuff might be a little harder.. There are some articles on the web about fitting later model bigger brakes to them as well.

6. Did the 4AGE Corollas only come with 5 doors? What is the homologation story for the Corolla?

There were two door varieties in Japan and England, not sure about homologation.

7. What haven't I thought of?

The RSI I got typing this answer....

[rowdytoot]

tort... FWD... uggh.. still I love my Corollas, so...

I'd agree with Mark, and go the AE82 SX/twin cam whatever.... you can pick up a shabby bodied and interiored one for about 2 2.5 K or so in sydney if you are prepared to look...

They can handle pretty well with a few mods.. they are build pretty strong too.. .. I loved my AE82... but now I drive a Pug (g/f's)....and thats a whole other ball game.... :p That said I'm probably looking for an AE92 SX for a daily driver, pending a few things..

The CS's didn't have a tacho.. only csx and above (in both Ae82 and Ae92), but retrofitting a dash panel shouldn't be hard. If you get a shopping trolley, you'll have to fit rear discs etc cos they had drums..


Proper LSD's aren't cheap.. I think the 4agze one is viscous and inb that case will die quickly.. TRD and Kaaz are reputedly the way to do..

Sam Brand's engine was a monster... sounded fantastic.. and the car was damn quick ... boring as **** to watch though.. bit like me in the gemini really..(except I'm not quick!) :p

Rowds

[tortfeaser]

You boys are champs. Top effort all round. Toymods blah.

Ben, I understand CAMS has approved F16 mods for all P1 and P2, so throttle bodies ok for post '86 cars. I'm trying to chase up the bulletin for this though.

Will the 4AGZE driveshafts fit with the stock uprights? Or will I need to get a front cut with all the bits to fit a 4AGZE box with LSD and bigger driveshafts?

I suppose I need to look at prices to choose between the '82 and '92. Are the rear ends the same for both? The 4AGE powered ones from the factory seem to be the go 'cos of the rear brakes. I'll be sticking the Megasquirt in, which might be easier with a '92 EFI one cos the loom will be there. Or did the '82 4AGE have EFI as well?

I agree with Spac - I seem to see more '92s around, so parts for this might be easier to get.

Any suggestions on Jap wreckers for 4AGZE boxes and AG motors?

[dusty]

A mate of mine has this corolla 4 sale if you are interested in it as a starting point.

1986 AE82 twin cam (~165K km on the clock)
4AGE 20v (silver top) done ~100K km (just fitted new Timing belt about
2weeks ago) + corrolla GT gearbox
extractors - 2.5inch exhaust
enclosed airpod + cold air induction setup
larger corrolla GT front rotors and calipers
lowered King springs and Monro gas
15" alloys, 45 series tyres
remote keyless central locking and alarm
Corrolla GT front seats (very nice!!)
JVC CD/MP3 head unit, Pioneer 4 way amp, Pioneer 6" splits in the front and
Pioneer 6x9" in the rear
It's in pretty good condition, gos well and looks good and it's had an oil
change every 5000km since I've owned it.
Asking $5300 neg.


Shane Grieves
Australian National University
Electronics Technician
Department of Physics
Faculty of Science
Ph: (02)61254352

[rowdytoot]

tort.. '82's were EFI too...

I beleive and I'm sure Ben will correct me, that the '82 and '92 rear ends are pretty much identical.. trailing arms, struts, sway bar..


Parts for a '92 will be more expensive, and '82 parts were never hard to get when I had mine..


Rowds

[Damo]

Marc,

From memory, the later 100kw engine also had "TVIS" (the variable throttle thingy's). This might be a bit of a pain to get working properly with the megasquirt?

Edit - not an issue of you plan to go the 20v thottlebodies though..

[Spac]

How about a KC/KE Laser?

There's a guy on the MX-5 forums with a B6 motor that sounds very similar to Mawk's, but with 86kW ATW.
Should be reasonably easy to get a CR gearset from a Familia, and the FWD only shouldn't EVER break it.
LSDs from an RX-7 can be adapted, apparently.
Suspension from a GT-R/GT-X should be an easy fit (and I know someone who's selling DMS...).
Parts appear to be cheaper and more common that the Toyota stuff.
Those crazy kids from Qld had their single cam one for sale...

Not saying that its The Only Way To Go. But surely its worth considering?

[Mark]

Damo, only 86kw jobbies came with the TVIS; that you turf if you are going to run in rally mode because you shouldn't be running it below 5K rpm anyway. 100kw had a different set of intake runners as a result.

Spac has an interesting point. There was Tristan Carrigan that ARN raved on about for the last two years, up in QLD, who ran a 1600cc N/Aspirated TX3 that made 112hp at the wheels or something which is probably close to 86kw...and he won a state championship or two against WRX's... He must have been a hell of a 'pilot'! Conversely, take my setup but with stronger conrods and you could make that ~ just with less torque ~ by revving it harder, eh, Ben!

[Swill]

What about the turbo starlet 1300cc thingys, they would have to fairly funky, factory LSD, intercooler,subwoofers etc? Turbo is the way to go. Dirt cheap rally import from japan?


180b?

[Raynman]

Have the F16 mods to later model cars haven't trickled down to state/club level yet? Or do you need to run them at ARC level only?


If you want a good laser look at Shaun Timberlake's in Victoria (he had it for sale in the ARN a few months ago). That thing was pretty good.

Apparently the QLD boys didn't skimp on anything with their laser - allegedly the build price would have put some 4wd turbos to shame