Rule book questions: Nav's seats, and roll cages.

[Spac]

Quick quiz for the rule book readers among us...

1. Can anyone tell me if/how/by what mechanism you are prohibited you from having a reclining seat in the MFB spot?

Someone I know got picked up for this, and I thought it was right at first, but closer perusal of the Badly Worded Book shows that it talks about driver's seats, with no mention of MFB seats.

2. The roll-cage rules have changed for 2004. Basically, all new cages need to have two diagonals in the main hoop (rather than the older style of having one in either the hoop or the rear legs), and two diagonals in the roof section (rather than none) and side intrusion bars.

So, then I go to the back of Schedule J (Is it J?), and they've still got the 'granfather clause' for cars originally log booked with CAMS before 2000 (they can still keep using pre-200 spec cages).

Then the penny dropped - what happens to cars log booked between 2000 and 2004? Or am I missing some subtlety of the word "homologation"? Sure a f12k I won't be able to fit two diagonals into the roof and fit in there myself... Not to mention the hassles of physically getting them in there (ref: welding on top of the tubing).

Any suggestions while I wait for CAMS to get back to me?

[Mad Mal]

Take up golf

[rowdytoot]

Spac.. my interpretation of the article on Pg12 of the current (ie. arrived today) CAMS magazine, is that the stuff you mention does not apply to mild steel cages, only to cro-mo, and only for cages homologated after Jan1 2004 to comply with FIA Article 253-8, or those cages built to comply with FIA 253-8 that have not been actually homologated as yet due to no one being FIA approved to homologate said cages in Australia til Feb 2004.

I'm guessing it means in practice. That if you have a 2000-2004 logbooked car, and you don't run events requiring FIA spec cages, nothing changes. If you do want to run an event that requires current FIA homologation for your cage, then you have to add the various bits and pieces and have a full FEA done on the cage

Rowds

[DaveTrees]

Originally posted by rowdytoot
Spac.. my interpretation of the article on Pg12 of the current (ie. arrived today) CAMS magazine, is that the stuff you mention does not apply to mild steel cages, only to cro-mo, and only for cages homologated after Jan1 2004 to comply with FIA Article 253-8, or those cages built to comply with FIA 253-8 that have not been actually homologated as yet due to no one being FIA approved to homologate said cages in Australia til Feb 2004.

I'm guessing it means in practice. That if you have a 2000-2004 logbooked car, and you don't run events requiring FIA spec cages, nothing changes. If you do want to run an event that requires current FIA homologation for your cage, then you have to add the various bits and pieces and have a full FEA done on the cage

Rowds

Thats my interpretation too Rowds. Mild steel cages do not have to be "homologated" for non-FIA events in Australia ... as long as you build it to the specs in the book you are OK. You only have to comply with the rules that were in place at the time the logbook was issued.

On the seats issue - even though Schedule C only refers to DRIVERS seats - I think the INTENT is clear in the PRC regs.... ie. if you replace the seats, they must meet the Schedule C specs.

Interestingly though - I always thought the "squab" of the seat was the bit you sat on .... and you werent allowed to have it adjustable for rake (ie. angle). I have been told by a both member of the CAMS tech commission & the chairman of the Vic scrutiny panel however that it MEANS the angle between the seat & the back.

That said - its very easy to make a seat "non-tiltable" ... even "temporarily" just for use during events. An appropriately located hole drilled through the adjustment mechanism with an appropriate grade bolt & nut through it is regarded as acceptable, I am informed. So is welding up the adjuster mechanism. You DONT have to necessarily buy a "fixed back" seat !

I chased this up specifically cos its hard to get into the back of the Volvo 142 unless you can tilt the seat forward !! (just for when i finally get the $$ to get rid of the comfy standard seats ....... )

[DaveTrees]

Originally posted by Karl Willett
I have an FIA spec cage in the WRX but it ain't gonna get homologation because I refuse to handover $2000 for nothing.

Karl

i thought that as long as it was built to the homologated design it was OK ? ie. each individual cage doesnt have to be inspected, just the design ? Or have I read it wrong ?

[rowdytoot]

Hagar, at least the 1000 pages of double talking procedure reading I've done recently seems to have some use in the real world

and on the homologation thing... every cage has to be inspected according to my interpretation of the CAMS mag thing.... (maybe I can luck out and get it right twice on one topic.. )

I'm sure Karl has it right...apparently there is a 'backlog' of FIA spec cages to be inspected in Oz cos they didn't have anyone approved for 12 months... clever kids, very clever...

Rowds

[smee]

The cage in my Mazda is Chro-Mo and was issued with a ROP certificate along with my log book this year 2004. It cost $126 for them to issue me with a sticker and photocopy the cage pictures I took and look at the paper work that was sent to Sydney to have the structure drawn up and put into a computer so as to specify structural rigidity. There was no cost to send all the info to Sydney for the computer generation thing as far as I know.
It only has single diag in the main hoop and a single diag in the roof. It does have those down tubes between the A pillar and the floor though along with double intrusion bars. I am not sure if this helps in the certificate issuing phase (I suppose not).
Also when they issue the nice white sticker, a letter is attached stating that you must produce your cage paper work and drawings at documentation. This I did at Oberon and freaked the doco people out. Mr Humphries was also taken aback.

[DaveTrees]

Originally posted by rowdytoot
and on the homologation thing... every cage has to be inspected according to my interpretation of the CAMS mag thing.... (maybe I can luck out and get it right twice on one topic.. )

I think you will find that for non-FIA events that the cage just has to be INSPECTED by a scrute to see that it is built as per the minimum spec in the manual - the design doesnt have to be HOMOLOGATED if its built out of mild steel tube, and it doesnt have to go through engineering analysis either.

Basically the cage manufacturer/installer (which can be yourself) signs off that it is properly contructed - so CAMS's bum is covered.

That was my reading of the article in the CAMS magazine, in conjunction with the Manual & a discussion with David Brown of Brown Davis Automotive (long-time cage builder & member of CAMS techinical panel).

I guess I will go into it in more depth when I get around to putting a cage in the Volvo !! (although from 1971 onwards the 140 series actually have a rollover hoop & intrusion bars built into them ..... but i cant see the powers that be accepting that !! ). In the meantime I will stick to intro events, TRE's & autocross/khanacross where I dont have to have ROPS.

[Spac]

...because FIA paper is so different to CAMS paper...

...just like Homlogation papers.

Motorsport in Europe is so different to in Australia (or the USA for that matter) - look at things like petrol prices, car ownership rates, etc etc - the sooner CAMS realises that, the better.

The FIA appears to exist for the FIA, and nobody else.

[rowdytoot]

Sorry Hagar , in my 1/2 asleep attempt to write before lunch the'every' bit crept in .. I meant every cage that is used in FIA events... doh!!

Rowds

[Spac]

From: Peter Lawrence
Sent: Tuesday, 13 April 2004 5:07 PM
To: Garry Grant
Subject: RE: Rollcage rules.


Garry,
There is an oversight here. It should say cages homologated after
1/1/04. I will fix this at the next Board meeting in May. Cages with
papers issued previously are still valid.


Cheers
Peter Lawrence
Manager - Technical Services, CAMS


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Garry Grant
> Sent: Tuesday, 13 April 2004 4:48 PM
> To: Peter Lawrence
> Cc: 'Nathan.Senior@act.gov.au'
> Subject: FW: Rollcage rules.
>
>
> Peter,
> Could you advise me on this situation please.
>
> Regards,
>
> Garry Grant (03) 9593 7735
> State Manager - Victoria
> Confederation of Australian Motor Sport
> www.cams.com.au/go/vic
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Senior, Nathan [mailto:Nathan.Senior@act.gov.au]
> Sent: Tuesday, 13 April 2004 3:15 PM
> To: Garry Grant
> Subject: Rollcage rules.
>
>
> Gary,
>
> Further to our phone conversation this afternoon, I'll
> explain my concerns.
>
> I have recently received my 2004 CAMS Manual of Motorsport. I
> paid particular attention to the requirement for newly
> homologated ROPS to have side intrusion bars, two diagonals
> in the main hoop, and two diagonals in the roof section, as I
> am currently in the process of building a new rally car for
> my partner.
>
> I also paid particular attention to the "grandfather clause"
> regarding vehicles originally registered with CAMS prior to
> the first day of January 2000. However, you can imagine my
> horror when I realised there was no such clause for cars log
> booked between 2000 and 2004, particularly seeing as my rally
> car was log booked in 2000, and does not comply with the
> current regulations (it lacks the specified diagonals,
> despite being quite a comprehensive roll-cage).
>
> I am aware that I may be misunderstanding a subtlety of the
> use of the word 'homologation', however I am very eager to
> have this matter clarified as soon as possible, particularly
> as I plan on competing in the Subaru National Rally of
> Canberra early next month.
>
> Simply put, do I need to alter my existing roll-cage to the
> 2004 standards, is there an over-sight in the 2004 manual, or
> have I misunderstood the 2004 manual?
>
> Many thanks,
> Nathan Senior.

[fro]

Thanks for expending the effort to clarify this, Nathan.

Hopefully a Bulletin will be out in short order. I imagine that this only effects a few hundred cars* used in all avenues of CAMS motorsport... Schedule J has wider applications than just rallying, after all.

* - I've really got no idea how many cars it would effect. It'd be interesting to see figures on how many log-books are issued per year, or the window between 01/01/2001 and 01/01/2004.

[Spac]

Anytime, Stephen...

Seriously, what a balls-up... How many people did the changes go through, and how did they ALL miss it, when it took me about thirty seconds to realise? Or is it because I'm actually a competitor, and actually give a **** about the rules? :?

[Mad Mal]

Sweet, i dont have to put any more weight into the car.

[smee]

So seeing as how my cage is homologated by CAMS, am I entitled to run any round of the ARC without having to get extra bars tacked in, cause I would like to run Premier State.

And now that the RoC has run in the ACT, this takes away the clause of being able to run a round of the Manufacturers/ARC in your home state.

Cause If I need to put the extra bars in, I wont be able to get in or out and CAMS should not have issued the certificate in the way they did.....

Also my car is out of homolgation by 2 years I think, so is not entitled to enter FIA events, unless they have national bits tagged on.