Waiting in Controls - The Rules - Brindabella Motor Sport Club

Bogan · 18-03-2005, 10:14 AM

I'm much less stressed about it now, so let's talk about a scenario that happened at Narooma, so that if it happens again at RoC I can stand up for my rights (If I need to).

Let's say a competitor who is car 10* pulls into the time control at the start of SS5 and their car is not happy. It's running really badly, it could even be running on one cylinder. It's pretty darn crook.

They struggle into the control and book in, but then are not ready to start in 3 minutes time at their provisional start time and they hang around in the control. They then decide to "try to start" just before me, car 45**.

What happens next?

T.

*It wasn't car 10.
**I wasn't car 45.

Bogan · 18-03-2005, 10:18 AM

So they're allowed to do that? How is it any different to the "My harnesses are loose so I want a dust gap" story that everyone whinges about and is supposedly against the rules? Something about being ready to start when called up or something like that?

T.

Paul · 18-03-2005, 10:18 AM

That's a good one to fire at your CoC Adrian

, but I know what he's going to say.

Rallyray · 18-03-2005, 10:20 AM

If the car is really crook I doubt that they are trying to get a dustgap?

Are you referring to me at Narooma?

Spac · 18-03-2005, 10:23 AM

If a car isn't ready to start at their provisional start time, then they're penalised one minute of competitive time, for every minute (or part of a minute) that they're late to the start line.
You might 'get away with it' (which is where the "oh gosh, my harness is loose" scenario comes into it), but the rules are pretty clear...

This is what happened to a certain ACT crew at Batemans a couple of years ago.

There's no manipulation of road positions in this case.

All of the above, is obviously only relevant if the car is running late, not if the event is.

Edit: Oh, and if they've got any hope of fixing the car, then they should try to fix the car outside of the control and just book into the control late.

Bogan · 18-03-2005, 10:25 AM

No not you Raymond.

They weren't trying to get a dust gap, they were just trying to continue, but if they've already booked in and minimised any loss of late time it's disadvantaging me if they start ahead of me because I might be still fighting for a class win or CM placing or something, and now I have a crook car starting in front of me which I might catch in the first km or two. That didn't happen and I didn't get much if any dust but it didn't seem right.

I didn't think what happened was within the rules, and managed to get a three minute gap in that stage, but then that evaporated at the next control when there was a line up and our actual start times reverted to two minutes.

T.

Spac · 18-03-2005, 10:29 AM

Yeah, the problem with the rules (and not being able to swap in control and all that) is that they blindly assume that there will never be a delay in the running of the event, and that if a competitor drops road position, they'll be travelling at full speed regardless (ignoring that they lost road position for some reason, which is often a crook car)...

Paul · 18-03-2005, 10:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spac

If a car isn't ready to start at their provisional start time, then they're penalised one minute of competitive time, for every minute (or part of a minute) that they're late to the start line.
You might 'get away with it' (which is where the "oh gosh, my harness is loose" scenario comes into it), but the rules are pretty clear...

This is what happened to a certain ACT crew at Batemans a couple of years ago.

All of the above, is obviously only if the car is running late, not if the event is.

They have 20 second to get off the start line once they have been counted down. It they are unable to do that than the crew are to move the vehicle off the start line out of the way for the next crew. As Spac stated they start loosing time. So you can sit there and say my harness is not done up, but the starter should be still counting them down. This also goes for crews that hang around at the control than in the last 20 secs come up to the start line. They will be penalised and no arguments will be entered into.

Bogan · 18-03-2005, 10:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul

They have 20 second to get off the start line once they have been counted down. It they are unable to do that than the crew are to move the vehicle off the start line out of the way for the next crew.

What if they're not even there? Should they be counted down if they're sitting beside the car rehydrating or some such other thing? If they then turn up to the line later what happens? Do they get started again, and take a penalty for every minute they're late? I know that we should try to accommodate people where we can, but we should not ignore the rules nor should we disadvantage other crews.

I should have filled in an incident report I know, and then kept track of any lost time (e.g. the distance in stage where we caught thick dust and had to slow down) or something like that?

T.

TKM · 18-03-2005, 11:05 AM

You're obviously referring to us Tony, as it was us that died in between the time control and the start control, and once the car was going again, we slipped in front of you.

We checked into the time control for SS7, then as we moved off the car died and wouldn’t restart. We moved the car to the side (out of the way), but hadn’t made it to the start control. We did not work on the car in control, as I am aware I can not do that, plus I knew it was useless anyway, I didn’t even open the bonnet. We decided to let the car cool for a while and see if it would start again so we could limp through the stage to the next service. I advised the Time control official what we were going to do and told her to fill out an incident report and let the organisers sort it out, as I wasn’t sure what the implications would be.

After a while when the car had cooled a little, it restarted and we slipped in front of you. You were rightly concerned at the time, as I think you were worried that as we planned to limp through the stage you might catch us and get our dust. I constantly checked my mirrors for your lights throughout the stage and was prepared to pull over at the fist sign of any lights in the distance, but this didn’t proved necessary, and you didn’t come up on us when we left the flying finish control. It’s not like we where driving the whole stage in 1st gear or something, I was simply short shifting to keep the revs below 4500rpm. I was concerned about you catching us, but upon looking at the results you were 26 seconds quicker than us so dust shouldn’t have been a problem.

TKM · 18-03-2005, 11:12 AM

Oh, and I should point out that we were still within our right to continue, regardless of any penalites that may have been imposed. Even if we had used up all our late time in control, you can't be made to pull out until the end of a division.

Paul · 18-03-2005, 11:19 AM

Tony

The onus is on the crews to present themselves at the start line before their provisional start time. If you fail to do that than you will be penalised "with a few exceptions". Any deviation to the norm will have an incident report written, than it will be up to the CoC and the stewards of the event as to what penalties will be handed out, if any.

Same goes for jump starts, as we have printouts attached to the beams, there will be no issue and an incident report will be written.

If you have any issue with any of what has been discussed than speak to the CofC for the national event, aka Adrian. However he is pretty busy at present, so it might be wise to send him an email if so desired.

PT

Spac · 18-03-2005, 11:20 AM

I'm not sure what the strict letter of the law is, because it's always ambiguous about what is supposed to happen.

I think what happens in the real (non-RoC) world, is that the controllie makes a decision on whether the crew in question has a real problem and is trying to do the right thing, or if they are 'trying it on'. The controllie then tempers it with their understanding of the rules, and how much the crew is bluffing them, and they may or may-not end up dumping a penality the car in question...

I had a legitimate drama getting my harness done up at 2003 Batemans at the start of the last stage (I was NOT in a good frame of mind at that point and I take full brain-fart responsibility for it!).
We got to the start line just before/right on our provisional start time. The paper-work was rushed, and then we were sent out, about 15 seconds after the clock had started.
I'm not sure about what would have happened if we'd gotten to the start line fifteen seconds after our provisional start time - we still had an (unrealisitc, but technically possible) chance of clearing the start line within the twenty seconds, so it'd be wrong to not even give us the chance to start inside that minute...
Even if the paper work was finished after 25-seconds, it'd seem pointless to hold us in control for the next 35 seconds, while giving a full minute of penalty...

Though, there are dust-gap issue for the next car, so maybe we should have been held if we'd been that little bit later.

In your Narooma case, Bog, I think that you'd have been wasting your time. What happened (you getting held in control for longer than you 'should' have been) was the good real-world solution, where commonsense over-rides technicalities... And because Narooma is a good real-world event, if you'd caught the precedding car in stage, they probably wouldn't have bothered correcting times anyhow...
Obviously this 'solution' only works if both parts of the equation are in place...

Paul · 18-03-2005, 11:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TKM

end of a division.

Mr K.

I see you are showing you age once again. When was the last time we used that phrase.

Paul · 18-03-2005, 11:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spac

We got to the start line just before/right on our provisional start time. The paper-work was rushed, and then we were sent out, about 15 seconds after the clock had started.
I'm not sure about what would have happened if we'd gotten to the start line fifteen seconds after our provisional start time - we still had an (unrealisitc, but technically possible) chance of clearing the start line within the twenty seconds, so it'd be wrong to not even give us the chance to start inside that minute...
Even if the paper work was finished after 25-seconds, it'd seem pointless to hold us in control for the next 35 seconds, while giving a full minute of penalty...

Spac the 20 second thing is more to do with failing to start after you have been counted down at the start line. Not so much presenting yourself at the start line with 20 seconds to go.